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Forums - General Discussion - The LGBT thread (Revisited)

curl-6 said:

If it makes you feel any better, watch the game sell a gazillion copies and show that these individuals are a vocal minority.

Ah yes, the vocal minority. The last, dwindling numbers of true bigots that have realized their battle with progress is lost and must find a wholly new ground to fight on: False logic and conjured excuses. Rather than outright claim things like 'the gay lifestyle is ruining the culture' or 'it destroys the sanctity of marriage', they complain about people 'pushing an SJW agenda' or how inclusion is actually exclusion for white dudes. 

I hate people, sometimes. I really, really do. The lengths people will go to justify their bigotry is just astoundingly baffling. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

Top 6 this generation: 
Bloodborne, Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, God of War, The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Dark Souls III, Red Dead Redemption II, Rock Band 4

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Runa216 said:
curl-6 said:

If it makes you feel any better, watch the game sell a gazillion copies and show that these individuals are a vocal minority.

Ah yes, the vocal minority. The last, dwindling numbers of true bigots that have realized their battle with progress is lost and must find a wholly new ground to fight on: False logic and conjured excuses. Rather than outright claim things like 'the gay lifestyle is ruining the culture' or 'it destroys the sanctity of marriage', they complain about people 'pushing an SJW agenda' or how inclusion is actually exclusion for white dudes. 

I hate people, sometimes. I really, really do. The lengths people will go to justify their bigotry is just astoundingly baffling. 

Given how much bigotry pisses me off as a straight white dude (a lot) I can only imagine what it's like for LGBT people and folks of colour. 

But yeah, it gives me hope to remember that these people really are on the losing side in the long run; progress always wins in the end, resistance only delays the inevitable. I mean, look at how far we've come in the last fifty years. Being openly gay was one of the ultimate taboos back then, yet now we have same sex marriage enshrined in law. I hope I don't sound patronizing in saying so, but as painfully slow as the process is, we are slowly becoming a more empathetic and compassionate society, I feel.

It's just that, as you say, those on the losing side are getting louder now they know they're losing.



Bet with Liquidlaser: I say PS5 and Xbox Series will sell more than 56 million combined by the end of 2023.

curl-6 said:

If it makes you feel any better, watch the game sell a gazillion copies and show that these individuals are a vocal minority.

I'd find such a development satisfying for sure.



curl-6 said:
Runa216 said:

Ah yes, the vocal minority. The last, dwindling numbers of true bigots that have realized their battle with progress is lost and must find a wholly new ground to fight on: False logic and conjured excuses. Rather than outright claim things like 'the gay lifestyle is ruining the culture' or 'it destroys the sanctity of marriage', they complain about people 'pushing an SJW agenda' or how inclusion is actually exclusion for white dudes. 

I hate people, sometimes. I really, really do. The lengths people will go to justify their bigotry is just astoundingly baffling. 

Given how much bigotry pisses me off as a straight white dude (a lot) I can only imagine what it's like for LGBT people and folks of colour. 

But yeah, it gives me hope to remember that these people really are on the losing side in the long run; progress always wins in the end, resistance only delays the inevitable. I mean, look at how far we've come in the last fifty years. Being openly gay was one of the ultimate taboos back then, yet now we have same sex marriage enshrined in law. I hope I don't sound patronizing in saying so, but as painfully slow as the process is, we are slowly becoming a more empathetic and compassionate society, I feel.

It's just that, as you say, those on the losing side are getting louder now they know they're losing.

I would love to make this (or a variation of this) a rallying cry for the progressive. Dismissing arguments as "You're only passionate because you know you're on the wrong side of history and don't want to be forgotten" or something like that. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

Top 6 this generation: 
Bloodborne, Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, God of War, The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Dark Souls III, Red Dead Redemption II, Rock Band 4

Jaicee said:
curl-6 said:

If it makes you feel any better, watch the game sell a gazillion copies and show that these individuals are a vocal minority.

I'd find such a development satisfying for sure.

Well, I think you can rest easy as I can't possibly see TLOU2 not doing huge numbers given its pedigree and the pattern of first party game sales on PS4. I'm quite confident it'll do 20 million plus across PS4 and the inevitably PS5 remaster.

Runa216 said:
curl-6 said:

Given how much bigotry pisses me off as a straight white dude (a lot) I can only imagine what it's like for LGBT people and folks of colour. 

But yeah, it gives me hope to remember that these people really are on the losing side in the long run; progress always wins in the end, resistance only delays the inevitable. I mean, look at how far we've come in the last fifty years. Being openly gay was one of the ultimate taboos back then, yet now we have same sex marriage enshrined in law. I hope I don't sound patronizing in saying so, but as painfully slow as the process is, we are slowly becoming a more empathetic and compassionate society, I feel.

It's just that, as you say, those on the losing side are getting louder now they know they're losing.

I would love to make this (or a variation of this) a rallying cry for the progressive. Dismissing arguments as "You're only passionate because you know you're on the wrong side of history and don't want to be forgotten" or something like that. 

Yeah I honestly think that's where a lot of the hate against progress comes from; people see its inevitable advance and rail against it, and their anger comes from the fact that deep down, they know they can't stop it. It's like being angry about ageing.



Bet with Liquidlaser: I say PS5 and Xbox Series will sell more than 56 million combined by the end of 2023.

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Jaicee said:

Okay, so I was checking out a bunch of reviews for The Last of Us Part II today. So far it's being scored (to my surprise) very comparably to the original. And by similarly I mean that various outlets that were around back in 2013 are often scoring the sequel exactly the same as they did the original. Representing the polar ends of the spectrum, for example, IGN scores it a 10 while GameSpot scores it an 8, both identical to their scores of the original. I've watched a lot of these review videos and read a lot of the articles at this point (and yes I'm familiar with the contents of the leaks too) and based on what I've seen and heard so far...well the main takeaway for me was that I still have to wait and see for myself...but also that I suspect I will have an overall very high but nuanced opinion of the final product. Just wanted to say that right away so that nobody takes me the wrong way. ANYWAY...

The IGN review (10/10, which is notoriously commonplace for them anyway) has been watched the most times so far, and the gamer reactions thereto can thus I think perhaps be taken as the overall most reflective of the views of the gaming community. That's why I want to highlight a bunch of examples that were up-voted below, which really are typical examples. You'll notice that definite themes prevail, and I mean besides the fact that the respondents, with pretty absolute consistency, replied in the form of sarcastic non-quotations that were apparently supposed to be funny. Check out the sense of humor:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“This game made everyone here at IGN turn in to lesbians including David and me” -10/10 (383 up-votes)

"Stunning and brave it makes you feel like an oppressed lesbian" 10/10 (262 up-votes)

"This game really made me feel guilty about being a white male." 10/10 IGN (178 up-votes)

“It really makes you feel like your wife took the kids” 10/10 IGN (174 up-votes)

"This lesbian really made me feel like game." 10/10 - IGN (147 up-votes)

"The Las of us part II is a love letter to Anita Sarkesian" 10/10 - IGN (116 up-votes)

"I feel shame on myself everytime I remember i'm straight" IGN- 10/10 (94 up-votes)

“If I don’t give this game a masterpiece, I’m a sexist” 10/10 -IGN (92 up-votes)

“My wife left me two weeks ago” -10/10 -IGN (66 up-votes)

"Has a lesbian protagonist. 10/10 - IGN Has a trans woman. Masterpiece - IGN" (53 up-votes)

(Spoiler: There is no transwoman character in TLOU2 that we're aware of as yet. The above remark is either hyperbole or paranoia. Just pointing it out for context. -- My note.)

"The protagonist is a girl" IGN - 10/10 (53 up-votes)

"IGN: “this game makes you feel like a true lesbian” 10/10 IGN (32 up-votes)

"The last of lesbian 2" IGN: 10/10" (27 up-votes)

"My wife's boyfriend really like this game" IGN- 10/10 (12 up-votes)

"orange man bad" - 10/10 IGN (7 up-votes)

"this game felt like my wife pegging me" 10/10 IGN (6 up-votes)

"It really makes you feel like you're looting in Minneapolis" 10/10 - IGN (5 up-votes)

"Lesbian" 10/10 - IGN (4 up-votes)

"The game makes you feel like a very angry lesbian" IGN - 10/10 stunning and brave (3 up-votes)

"the most authentic lesbian and golf simulator" 10/10 - IGN (3 up-votes)

"How two lesbians and a Ma'am made me a better father." IGN 10/10 (1 up-vote)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those are just some randomly-selected examples that I ordered by number of up-votes for convenience. I literally could have quoted hundreds of similar comments because they really do seem to go on and on forever, but you get the idea at this point. It's impossible to ignore how consistently misogynistic attitudes really do lie at the heart of nearly everyone campaigning against this particular game, or the fact that essentially all detractors are obviously political conservatives who feel that characters simply being female or being lesbians or being muscular and female at the same time constitute political statements by themselves, and reasons why a game should be scored lower.

The campaign against this particular game has never been about its game play quality or about its technical merits. Neither has it ever been for love of Joel and Ellie as characters because, as we can plainly see above, this game's premature detractors hate Ellie for being a lesbian character. This campaign, rather, is motivated by simple, straightforward, easy-to-understand, impossible-to-miss, hatred of women in general and lesbians in particular. (No, not "gay people", not "LGBT people", not "queer people", lesbians. Lesbian is the term they use.). That is all. Just wanted to put that in cement tonight because I'm tired of people being as disingenuous as they are about their motives here and pretending like they've ever intended to evaluate this game objectively. The second they learned Ellie was the main character in the sequel, the campaign began and what you see above are its main contents. End of debate.

Most of those posts are funny (at least among those with high upvotes), but I don't look at them as having lesbians/women as their target, but rather IGN's reasonings for giving games high scores. Infamous are IGN's reviews for Grand Theft Auto IV with the line "oscar-worthy dialogues" and one Pokémon game where the review went on and on about water (which resulted in the "too much water" meme). The comments you posted most commonly mock IGN's hyperbole. And sure, there are bound to be some truly hateful posts in the comment sections too, but the world isn't perfect and it will never be.

If you get upset over every kind of joke that involves gay people in some form, then you won't ever get close to acceptance of lesbians as normal people, because it's a demand to make lesbians a topic that is taboo. Go watch some Will & Grace to lighten up. Your takeaway is either going to be that jokes involving gay people, including self-depreciating humor, are fine just like for other kinds of people or that gay sitcoms are just as bad as all other sitcoms. But either way, the conclusion would be steering towards normality.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV (360+PS3) would outsell SSBB. I was wrong.

A Biased Review Reloaded / Open Your Eyes / Switch Shipments

On a positive note, it was recently ruled that sexuality and transgenderness are protected classes.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/supreme-court-rules-existing-civil-rights-law-protects-gay-lesbian-n1231018?fbclid=IwAR1GKra1_Gl7XP_v79fMjdmVccpJsu8og4T__x2Tpp2xh7SDLNoZchgbhUw



RolStoppable said:
Jaicee said:

Okay, so I was checking out a bunch of reviews for The Last of Us Part II today. So far it's being scored (to my surprise) very comparably to the original. And by similarly I mean that various outlets that were around back in 2013 are often scoring the sequel exactly the same as they did the original. Representing the polar ends of the spectrum, for example, IGN scores it a 10 while GameSpot scores it an 8, both identical to their scores of the original. I've watched a lot of these review videos and read a lot of the articles at this point (and yes I'm familiar with the contents of the leaks too) and based on what I've seen and heard so far...well the main takeaway for me was that I still have to wait and see for myself...but also that I suspect I will have an overall very high but nuanced opinion of the final product. Just wanted to say that right away so that nobody takes me the wrong way. ANYWAY...

The IGN review (10/10, which is notoriously commonplace for them anyway) has been watched the most times so far, and the gamer reactions thereto can thus I think perhaps be taken as the overall most reflective of the views of the gaming community. That's why I want to highlight a bunch of examples that were up-voted below, which really are typical examples. You'll notice that definite themes prevail, and I mean besides the fact that the respondents, with pretty absolute consistency, replied in the form of sarcastic non-quotations that were apparently supposed to be funny. Check out the sense of humor:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“This game made everyone here at IGN turn in to lesbians including David and me” -10/10 (383 up-votes)

"Stunning and brave it makes you feel like an oppressed lesbian" 10/10 (262 up-votes)

"This game really made me feel guilty about being a white male." 10/10 IGN (178 up-votes)

“It really makes you feel like your wife took the kids” 10/10 IGN (174 up-votes)

"This lesbian really made me feel like game." 10/10 - IGN (147 up-votes)

"The Las of us part II is a love letter to Anita Sarkesian" 10/10 - IGN (116 up-votes)

"I feel shame on myself everytime I remember i'm straight" IGN- 10/10 (94 up-votes)

“If I don’t give this game a masterpiece, I’m a sexist” 10/10 -IGN (92 up-votes)

“My wife left me two weeks ago” -10/10 -IGN (66 up-votes)

"Has a lesbian protagonist. 10/10 - IGN Has a trans woman. Masterpiece - IGN" (53 up-votes)

(Spoiler: There is no transwoman character in TLOU2 that we're aware of as yet. The above remark is either hyperbole or paranoia. Just pointing it out for context. -- My note.)

"The protagonist is a girl" IGN - 10/10 (53 up-votes)

"IGN: “this game makes you feel like a true lesbian” 10/10 IGN (32 up-votes)

"The last of lesbian 2" IGN: 10/10" (27 up-votes)

"My wife's boyfriend really like this game" IGN- 10/10 (12 up-votes)

"orange man bad" - 10/10 IGN (7 up-votes)

"this game felt like my wife pegging me" 10/10 IGN (6 up-votes)

"It really makes you feel like you're looting in Minneapolis" 10/10 - IGN (5 up-votes)

"Lesbian" 10/10 - IGN (4 up-votes)

"The game makes you feel like a very angry lesbian" IGN - 10/10 stunning and brave (3 up-votes)

"the most authentic lesbian and golf simulator" 10/10 - IGN (3 up-votes)

"How two lesbians and a Ma'am made me a better father." IGN 10/10 (1 up-vote)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those are just some randomly-selected examples that I ordered by number of up-votes for convenience. I literally could have quoted hundreds of similar comments because they really do seem to go on and on forever, but you get the idea at this point. It's impossible to ignore how consistently misogynistic attitudes really do lie at the heart of nearly everyone campaigning against this particular game, or the fact that essentially all detractors are obviously political conservatives who feel that characters simply being female or being lesbians or being muscular and female at the same time constitute political statements by themselves, and reasons why a game should be scored lower.

The campaign against this particular game has never been about its game play quality or about its technical merits. Neither has it ever been for love of Joel and Ellie as characters because, as we can plainly see above, this game's premature detractors hate Ellie for being a lesbian character. This campaign, rather, is motivated by simple, straightforward, easy-to-understand, impossible-to-miss, hatred of women in general and lesbians in particular. (No, not "gay people", not "LGBT people", not "queer people", lesbians. Lesbian is the term they use.). That is all. Just wanted to put that in cement tonight because I'm tired of people being as disingenuous as they are about their motives here and pretending like they've ever intended to evaluate this game objectively. The second they learned Ellie was the main character in the sequel, the campaign began and what you see above are its main contents. End of debate.

Most of those posts are funny (at least among those with high upvotes), but I don't look at them as having lesbians/women as their target, but rather IGN's reasonings for giving games high scores. Infamous are IGN's reviews for Grand Theft Auto IV with the line "oscar-worthy dialogues" and one Pokémon game where the review went on and on about water (which resulted in the "too much water" meme). The comments you posted most commonly mock IGN's hyperbole. And sure, there are bound to be some truly hateful posts in the comment sections too, but the world isn't perfect and it will never be.

If you get upset over every kind of joke that involves gay people in some form, then you won't ever get close to acceptance of lesbians as normal people, because it's a demand to make lesbians a topic that is taboo. Go watch some Will & Grace to lighten up. Your takeaway is either going to be that jokes involving gay people, including self-depreciating humor, are fine just like for other kinds of people or that gay sitcoms are just as bad as all other sitcoms. But either way, the conclusion would be steering towards normality.

Or perhaps instead of gaslighting her, you could accept that most of these thinly veiled jokes are still rooted in homophobia. If someone knows me on a personal level, I am fine with people making jokes about my lovelife but after decades of reading comments sections, I'm also very cynical of peoples intentions online. I'm pretty sure that Jaicee has a reason these comments struck her the wrong way and I would rather her be able to vent instead of being told to get a sense of humor. 



RolStoppable said:

Most of those posts are funny (at least among those with high upvotes), but I don't look at them as having lesbians/women as their target, but rather IGN's reasonings for giving games high scores. Infamous are IGN's reviews for Grand Theft Auto IV with the line "oscar-worthy dialogues" and one Pokémon game where the review went on and on about water (which resulted in the "too much water" meme). The comments you posted most commonly mock IGN's hyperbole. And sure, there are bound to be some truly hateful posts in the comment sections too, but the world isn't perfect and it will never be.

If you get upset over every kind of joke that involves gay people in some form, then you won't ever get close to acceptance of lesbians as normal people, because it's a demand to make lesbians a topic that is taboo. Go watch some Will & Grace to lighten up. Your takeaway is either going to be that jokes involving gay people, including self-depreciating humor, are fine just like for other kinds of people or that gay sitcoms are just as bad as all other sitcoms. But either way, the conclusion would be steering towards normality.

Oh I have a sense of humor. For example, when I read the bolded item, I laughed hysterically at the desperation of it because I AM a lesbian.

Look I can take a joke. But I'm also a human being. I do still have feelings, and limits, you know?



axumblade said:
RolStoppable said:

Most of those posts are funny (at least among those with high upvotes), but I don't look at them as having lesbians/women as their target, but rather IGN's reasonings for giving games high scores. Infamous are IGN's reviews for Grand Theft Auto IV with the line "oscar-worthy dialogues" and one Pokémon game where the review went on and on about water (which resulted in the "too much water" meme). The comments you posted most commonly mock IGN's hyperbole. And sure, there are bound to be some truly hateful posts in the comment sections too, but the world isn't perfect and it will never be.

If you get upset over every kind of joke that involves gay people in some form, then you won't ever get close to acceptance of lesbians as normal people, because it's a demand to make lesbians a topic that is taboo. Go watch some Will & Grace to lighten up. Your takeaway is either going to be that jokes involving gay people, including self-depreciating humor, are fine just like for other kinds of people or that gay sitcoms are just as bad as all other sitcoms. But either way, the conclusion would be steering towards normality.

Or perhaps instead of gaslighting her, you could accept that most of these thinly veiled jokes are still rooted in homophobia. If someone knows me on a personal level, I am fine with people making jokes about my lovelife but after decades of reading comments sections, I'm also very cynical of peoples intentions online. I'm pretty sure that Jaicee has a reason these comments struck her the wrong way and I would rather her be able to vent instead of being told to get a sense of humor. 

The sample of ~20 jokes covered a broad spectrum, but if all of them supposedly qualify as homophobia and/or hateful in general, then I can only conclude that it shouldn't be allowed to make any such jokes, or that all of them have to be frowned upon and condemned.

Jaicee said:

Oh I have a sense of humor. For example, when I read the bolded item, I laughed hysterically at the desperation of it because I AM a lesbian.

Look I can take a joke. But I'm also a human being. I do still have feelings, and limits, you know?

As both of you have misunderstood the point I was trying to get across, it wasn't about getting a sense of humor. Lightening up is about general attitude, namely if you expect to encounter hate for things you like, then you'll find hate even in the tiniest things. In its most pronounced form, that's the attitude that oppressed white males have, so they take offense to things where other people wouldn't even get the slightest idea of discrimination. Or as another example, if you constantly expect that the world is going to turn into shit, then you'll post reactions to political events like CaptainExplosion does. That's why you should lighten up or else you might turn into an ultra-defensive person over time.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV (360+PS3) would outsell SSBB. I was wrong.

A Biased Review Reloaded / Open Your Eyes / Switch Shipments