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Forums - General Discussion - The LGBT thread (Revisited)

TopCat8 said:
Question: Are gay characters enough to make you buy a new game? For example: You've never played God of War, but the next GoW game gives Kratos a male lover for some reason. Would you become more interested in the franchise?

If I bought games just because there were lesbian characters in them then I'd be the proud owner of every "yuri" game they've recently released on the Switch. Yet somehow I have resisted this temptation. I wonder why.

What I want in terms of representation is authenticity; lesbian representation on my terms. I'm not interested in a game that's just intended as a fantasy for straight guys. Yes, I can tell the difference. Easily.



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TopCat8 said:
Question: Are gay characters enough to make you buy a new game? For example: You've never played God of War, but the next GoW game gives Kratos a male lover for some reason. Would you become more interested in the franchise?

Sometimes.
The LGBT themes were enough for me to give Dragon Age: Origins a whirl... And that turned out to be one of my favorite games of all time.

It needs to be done with taste and thought, just bolting it on and flaunting the issue in everyones face for the duration of an entire game seems pretty tacky and in my opinion often a detriment to a well-thought-out story, there doesn't need to be a big deal and focus made for or against it, it's just an aspect of a person, it's not the whole person.

I didn't buy Mass Effect for the LGBT themes for instance and I enjoyed it for what it was and I still love that trilogy with or without the LGBT thematics.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Jaicee said:
TopCat8 said:
Question: Are gay characters enough to make you buy a new game? For example: You've never played God of War, but the next GoW game gives Kratos a male lover for some reason. Would you become more interested in the franchise?

If I bought games just because there were lesbian characters in them then I'd be the proud owner of every "yuri" game they've recently released on the Switch. Yet somehow I have resisted this temptation. I wonder why.

What I want in terms of representation is authenticity; lesbian representation on my terms. I'm not interested in a game that's just intended as a fantasy for straight guys. Yes, I can tell the difference. Easily.

oooh! Lemme guess, is it because.....those games are terrible?!

and honestly, I think the best representation is when it's not made out to be a selling point (not doing it for pandering points), not overt (mocking), and not so subtle that it's just there for some checklist. I think one of the best examples of LGBT relationships in any media is...and stick with me here...Deadpool 2. Negasonic Teenage Warhead had a female lover and it wasn't ever mentioned in any of the marketing, it was never super duper in-your-face, they didn't seem to be trying to rub it in anyone's face (Though I think some people need that), and even in-story it was never really brought up as a big deal. wade/Deadpool was like 'you two are cute together', and the most friction came from NTW herself, expecting Wade to be bigoted and preempting his snark only to realize...no, to Wade their love was love. who they loved was irrelevant. as a man who had recently lost the love of his life, he saw they loved each other and their genders/sexes never even seemed to register to him. 

The characters were realistic lesbian lovers who simply existed within the world, and their sexuality - while a present part of their character - was never the crux of their personality or identity. Yuukio was cute, NTW was protective and badass, both were friends to Wade (in a manner of speaking) and allies first. 

As it should be. 

That said, I think that any artist/writer/storyteller of any medium should be able to tell the story they want. I think what matters more is how successful the art is mixed with the intent. If, in the god of War example, they chose to make Kratos gay for whatever reason, they'd have to have a good reason to do so. He has been portrayed as clearly straight for the entirety of the franchise...but he was also a greek god killer and yet the best entry in the franchise happened in the north. If it fit the story and was told tastefully or appropriately, I'd be fine with Kratos being gay as fuuuuuuck. 

IF they made him a flamboyant, limp-wristed stereotype (which I'd expect if he was in, say, Bayonetta...which would be awesome), then I wouldn't respect that on the surface as it would not be accurate to the character and seemingly more of an insult to the past than anything else. 

It all relies on execution of intent. Because now that I think about it, a bayonetta/Kratos crossover where Kratos is gay as hell and over-the-top like Bayonetta would be an absolute riot. I'd love to play that game, him whippin' dudes on the ass with his chains, throwing his axe to behind his lover and recalling it to force said lover into his arms, shit like that. I'd play the hell out of that game. but it'd have to be either deliberately over-the-top or tastefully done. tone, intent, execution, and so many other factors go into making a game's artistic expression work. 

duke Nukem forever was poorly done, and the humour didn't work because it seemed juvenile and immature. Yet, other similarly juvenile and immature comedy works wonderfully because it's done well. Deadpool is a great example. anchorman is a great example. dumb and Dumber is a great example. 

The idea of raging against an 'idea' baffles me. Like, remember way back when the Witcher Netflix series was going to have a potentially non-white Ciri and people lost their fucking minds because 'ciri is white, stop with this SJW crap'? they argued that since the author was polish and polish people are white, that the characters should all be white. that, since the prior adaptations always made her white, that she should be white. None of that mattered - it was just attempts to justify or rationalize bigotry by people who didn't realize that's what they were doing - because the character ended up being white. but you know what? I don't think the character's skin colour was ever relevant to the character. Race is plenty discussed in the world of the Witcher, but it's usually like, humans vs goblins vs elves or whatever, not skin colour. given the comparisons, wouldn't it have been relevant to play with that? 

Remember when Samuel L Jackson was cast as nick fury despite the character always being white in the comics? Guess who's the most iconic nick Fury now...

The 'idea' of addressing those themes in this different way COULD be good. it could also be bad. in the end, it's all about execution and tact and intent and all those various other factors. if you don't like the idea of something, that's fine. you're allowed to be cautious or against something that sounds bad to you. Likewise, you're allowed to like what you like and guide your purchases by whether you feel a game represents you. Everyone has their own criteria. I just don't personally see the value in buying OR boycotting a game just because there's LGBT+ characters in it. 

Politics are tough. You don't win when it comes to politics. At best, you get your way, temporarily. 

but yeah, like, I've never bought a game because of representation, but I've never avoided games for that reason, either. I buy games that are good, and while devs being progressive in their views certainly is a factor, it's never been the tipping point when it came to making a purchase. 

I need to sleep. I write too much.



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

Runa216 said:
Jaicee said:

If I bought games just because there were lesbian characters in them then I'd be the proud owner of every "yuri" game they've recently released on the Switch. Yet somehow I have resisted this temptation. I wonder why.

What I want in terms of representation is authenticity; lesbian representation on my terms. I'm not interested in a game that's just intended as a fantasy for straight guys. Yes, I can tell the difference. Easily.

oooh! Lemme guess, is it because.....those games are terrible?!

and honestly, I think the best representation is when it's not made out to be a selling point (not doing it for pandering points), not overt (mocking), and not so subtle that it's just there for some checklist. I think one of the best examples of LGBT relationships in any media is...and stick with me here...Deadpool 2. Negasonic Teenage Warhead had a female lover and it wasn't ever mentioned in any of the marketing, it was never super duper in-your-face, they didn't seem to be trying to rub it in anyone's face (Though I think some people need that), and even in-story it was never really brought up as a big deal. wade/Deadpool was like 'you two are cute together', and the most friction came from NTW herself, expecting Wade to be bigoted and preempting his snark only to realize...no, to Wade their love was love. who they loved was irrelevant. as a man who had recently lost the love of his life, he saw they loved each other and their genders/sexes never even seemed to register to him. 

The characters were realistic lesbian lovers who simply existed within the world, and their sexuality - while a present part of their character - was never the crux of their personality or identity. Yuukio was cute, NTW was protective and badass, both were friends to Wade (in a manner of speaking) and allies first. 

As it should be. 

That said, I think that any artist/writer/storyteller of any medium should be able to tell the story they want. I think what matters more is how successful the art is mixed with the intent. If, in the god of War example, they chose to make Kratos gay for whatever reason, they'd have to have a good reason to do so. He has been portrayed as clearly straight for the entirety of the franchise...but he was also a greek god killer and yet the best entry in the franchise happened in the north. If it fit the story and was told tastefully or appropriately, I'd be fine with Kratos being gay as fuuuuuuck. 

IF they made him a flamboyant, limp-wristed stereotype (which I'd expect if he was in, say, Bayonetta...which would be awesome), then I wouldn't respect that on the surface as it would not be accurate to the character and seemingly more of an insult to the past than anything else. 

It all relies on execution of intent. Because now that I think about it, a bayonetta/Kratos crossover where Kratos is gay as hell and over-the-top like Bayonetta would be an absolute riot. I'd love to play that game, him whippin' dudes on the ass with his chains, throwing his axe to behind his lover and recalling it to force said lover into his arms, shit like that. I'd play the hell out of that game. but it'd have to be either deliberately over-the-top or tastefully done. tone, intent, execution, and so many other factors go into making a game's artistic expression work. 

duke Nukem forever was poorly done, and the humour didn't work because it seemed juvenile and immature. Yet, other similarly juvenile and immature comedy works wonderfully because it's done well. Deadpool is a great example. anchorman is a great example. dumb and Dumber is a great example. 

The idea of raging against an 'idea' baffles me. Like, remember way back when the Witcher Netflix series was going to have a potentially non-white Ciri and people lost their fucking minds because 'ciri is white, stop with this SJW crap'? they argued that since the author was polish and polish people are white, that the characters should all be white. that, since the prior adaptations always made her white, that she should be white. None of that mattered - it was just attempts to justify or rationalize bigotry by people who didn't realize that's what they were doing - because the character ended up being white. but you know what? I don't think the character's skin colour was ever relevant to the character. Race is plenty discussed in the world of the Witcher, but it's usually like, humans vs goblins vs elves or whatever, not skin colour. given the comparisons, wouldn't it have been relevant to play with that? 

Remember when Samuel L Jackson was cast as nick fury despite the character always being white in the comics? Guess who's the most iconic nick Fury now...

The 'idea' of addressing those themes in this different way COULD be good. it could also be bad. in the end, it's all about execution and tact and intent and all those various other factors. if you don't like the idea of something, that's fine. you're allowed to be cautious or against something that sounds bad to you. Likewise, you're allowed to like what you like and guide your purchases by whether you feel a game represents you. Everyone has their own criteria. I just don't personally see the value in buying OR boycotting a game just because there's LGBT+ characters in it. 

Politics are tough. You don't win when it comes to politics. At best, you get your way, temporarily. 

but yeah, like, I've never bought a game because of representation, but I've never avoided games for that reason, either. I buy games that are good, and while devs being progressive in their views certainly is a factor, it's never been the tipping point when it came to making a purchase. 

I need to sleep. I write too much.

Nick Fury was black in Marvel's Ultimate line, which was more modern and probably influenced the MCU more than Marvel's 616 continuity.  Ironically, the artist who worked on the series frequently used celebrities as models for characters, and Jackson was clearly the model for the MCU.  The "Ultimates" actually discuss who would play them in movies, and Nick Fury said Samuel L. Jackson.

Because of the MCU and the folding of the Ultimate imprint, they actually made Nick Fury black in Marvel 616... which is ridiculous.  Because the way they did it was by retconning in that he had a son who also happened to be a super spy with an eye patch and was also named Nick Fury.  And when he shows up, people act like he's the only Nick Fury that ever was and it's ridiculous.

The more you know.



axumblade said:
TruckOSaurus said:

Well Spiderman having the finally unlock being Peter Parker in his underwear made me REALLY want to work at unlocking it (but then those stupid follow the drone missions killed my dream).

It is more fun to swing around in the Spiderman when he is in his undies. I will agree, if a character is hot, sometimes that does influence me into playing it. Definitely what got me into Uncharted 

I feel the opposite about Spider-man, but I'm not going to pretend I've never chosen outfits for female characters based on how hot they looked.



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Jaicee said:
TopCat8 said:
Question: Are gay characters enough to make you buy a new game? For example: You've never played God of War, but the next GoW game gives Kratos a male lover for some reason. Would you become more interested in the franchise?

If I bought games just because there were lesbian characters in them then I'd be the proud owner of every "yuri" game they've recently released on the Switch. Yet somehow I have resisted this temptation. I wonder why.

What I want in terms of representation is authenticity; lesbian representation on my terms. I'm not interested in a game that's just intended as a fantasy for straight guys. Yes, I can tell the difference. Easily.

How do you feel about how they handled Tracer in Overwatch?



Signature goes here!

Here's another question: Did gaming help you realize your sexual identity in any way? Maybe you thought a character was attractive or maybe you met someone online and discussed sexuality with them. It could be anything, really. My example would be when I started playing The Sims, it didn't seem weird or unnatural to put two guys in a relationship with each other, and I started realizing that I also wanted that in my own life. I know there are a million other things that help shape a person's internal identity, but I was just curious where gaming comes into play for you all.



Add me on Xbox Live: TopCat8

TruckOSaurus said:

How do you feel about how they handled Tracer in Overwatch?

Tracer's awesome. It feels like her character was created and developed in good faith to me.



TopCat8 said:
Here's another question: Did gaming help you realize your sexual identity in any way? Maybe you thought a character was attractive or maybe you met someone online and discussed sexuality with them. It could be anything, really. My example would be when I started playing The Sims, it didn't seem weird or unnatural to put two guys in a relationship with each other, and I started realizing that I also wanted that in my own life. I know there are a million other things that help shape a person's internal identity, but I was just curious where gaming comes into play for you all.

I grew up in a time before there were any clearly lesbian characters in video games, or at least that I was/am aware of anyway. The first time I can recall seeing a clearly lesbian character in a video game was in the original Dead Rising from 2006. It was in a scene where this morbidly obese butch lesbian cop sexually assaults a much thinner, blonder, innocent straight woman in public for what's billed as an interrogation while she cries out in protest. I think that says all that needs to be said about that. I wouldn't say that I noticed any good faith attempts at lesbian representation in video games as a medium before 2008, at which point I was 26 years old. I feel unspoiled that way.

That said, I definitely, um, noticed Samus Aran, particularly in Super Metroid way back when. That was definitely a different Samus though than the modern one with the "zero suit" (ugh) who has no muscles. I liked Ayla from Chrono Trigger too back in the day, although by that time I'd already had my first girlfriend.

Anyway, to tell you the truth, Gone Home meant a lot to me when that game was released. That was the first video game (at least that I noticed or played) to narratively center a lesbian character. In retrospect, it's not like the best story in the history of games, but it was the only one like it at the time and well I've discussed this whole matter at length before. But what I would point out about it is that yes, that is a game that truly is mainly about its romance arc. The fact that Sam is lesbian was not just some incidental aspect of the story, it was a defining aspect of who she was as a character. That was as it should have been for the first lesbian-centric game, IMO. That's not some unplausible thing, especially for its setting. People used to, and sometimes still do, decide things like where to live based on their sexual orientation because some communities might be more welcoming than others, or in the past some states might have say allowed you to marry a partner of your sex while others didn't. You orientation really could define much of your life, especially back in 1995. Living through more repressive times and experiences might make you less...out right now. And maybe more appreciative of simple acknowledgements because they didn't used to be there. My point here being that I wouldn't like prescribe that games should have to treat same-sex attraction as just incidental like some have suggested here.

Butterfly Soup is my actual favorite game about lesbian characters, especially narratively. I'd recommend that as the best example in existence. It's a really well-made graphic novel style adventure that has a lot of heart. And it's hilarious. Like seriously, the flat-out funniest game I've ever played before.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 12 May 2020

I know it's not gaming related, but the novel I'm writing has a lesbian couple as two of the three main characters! Originally it was a straight relationship, with the main character being male, but as time went on I came to realize that the character's gender wasn't relevant to the plot or narrative. Plus, since it's fantasy, I chose to downplay gender and sexuality politics because, in this world, the different races prove to offer enough conflict in and of itself. Humans fighting with saurossins is plenty of conflict, don't need them too fussed over gay/lesbian relationships, too.

Not sure most people would be interested since it does have some subtle erotic undertones (it's mostly a fantasy action-romance....with some pseudo-meta narrative. sounds so pretentious to type it out like that, but I promise it makes sense.)



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android