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Forums - Politics Discussion - "Anti fascists" Severely Beat Journalist

o_O.Q said:
Torillian said:

Do you have any polling to support the idea that dislike of Islam is primarily something on the left? 

https://news.gallup.com/poll/254120/less-half-vote-socialist-president.aspx

Link to polling that 38% of republicans would be willing to vote for a muslim for president while 86% of democrats would. 

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

Pew Research showing that republicans are those that are republican leaning are more likely to have concerns about islam than those that are democrat. 

"Do you have any polling to support the idea that dislike of Islam is primarily something on the left? "

no I don't have any statistics to show that to be case... I just figured its obvious since islam and the left generally have conflicting values

"Link to polling that 38% of republicans would be willing to vote for a muslim for president while 86% of democrats would. "

"Research showing that republicans are those that are republican leaning are more likely to have concerns about islam than those that are democrat. "

fair enough I could be wrong on my assertion

i think this is a bit more complex than you are putting it here since we live in a world where feminists appear to be in support of islam by the majority while also decrying Christianity as one of the major driving forces behind why women were oppressed in the past, which obviously isn't consistent ( and shows a fair degree of stupidity and naivity )

but regardless i'll concede your argument

at any rate demonstrating that he has a problem with islam is not an argument since many leftists also have a problem with islam

Last statement is a reasonable argument to make, I only commented because you were stating trends with no evidence where all polling data goes against your assertion. The idea that one can have a problem with islam and be a leftist is reasonable. 

Now if you're anti islam, write mostly for rightwing new paper outlets and spend your time defending far right activist groups I think one can start to make some reasonable inductive arguments that such a person is on the right and perhaps even on the far right. 

Apparently you added in a little snip at the end "and its interesting that even though this argument has been made multiple times in this thread it is only now that you see a need to interject" that I'll comment on.

What I feel the need to interject on is when people make demonstrably false claims that can be easily shown to be false through some basic googling. That's why your statement was the only one I felt the need to interject. If I see any other similar statements that I can easily disprove I'll do so. 

Last edited by Torillian - on 10 July 2019

...

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o_O.Q said:
Torillian said:

Do you have any polling to support the idea that dislike of Islam is primarily something on the left? 

https://news.gallup.com/poll/254120/less-half-vote-socialist-president.aspx

Link to polling that 38% of republicans would be willing to vote for a muslim for president while 86% of democrats would. 

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

Pew Research showing that republicans are those that are republican leaning are more likely to have concerns about islam than those that are democrat. 

"Do you have any polling to support the idea that dislike of Islam is primarily something on the left? "

no I don't have any statistics to show that to be case... I just figured its obvious since islam and the left generally have conflicting values

"Link to polling that 38% of republicans would be willing to vote for a muslim for president while 86% of democrats would. "

"Research showing that republicans are those that are republican leaning are more likely to have concerns about islam than those that are democrat. "

fair enough I could be wrong on my assertion

i think this is a bit more complex than you are putting it here since we live in a world where feminists appear to be in support of islam by the majority while also decrying Christianity as one of the major driving forces behind why women were oppressed in the past, which obviously isn't consistent ( and shows a fair degree of stupidity and naivity )

but regardless i'll concede your argument

 

at any rate demonstrating that he has a problem with islam is not an argument since many leftists also have a problem with islam and its interesting that even though this argument has been made multiple times in this thread it is only now that you see a need to interject

You have to consider that in the western world the left is against christianity on their atheism, but are welcoming to islam, in general.



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Torillian said:
o_O.Q said:

"Do you have any polling to support the idea that dislike of Islam is primarily something on the left? "

no I don't have any statistics to show that to be case... I just figured its obvious since islam and the left generally have conflicting values

"Link to polling that 38% of republicans would be willing to vote for a muslim for president while 86% of democrats would. "

"Research showing that republicans are those that are republican leaning are more likely to have concerns about islam than those that are democrat. "

fair enough I could be wrong on my assertion

i think this is a bit more complex than you are putting it here since we live in a world where feminists appear to be in support of islam by the majority while also decrying Christianity as one of the major driving forces behind why women were oppressed in the past, which obviously isn't consistent ( and shows a fair degree of stupidity and naivity )

but regardless i'll concede your argument

at any rate demonstrating that he has a problem with islam is not an argument since many leftists also have a problem with islam

Last statement is a reasonable argument to make, I only commented because you were stating trends with no evidence where all polling data goes against your assertion. The idea that one can have a problem with islam and be a leftist is reasonable. 

Now if you're anti islam, write mostly for rightwing new paper outlets and spend your time defending far right activist groups I think one can start to make some reasonable inductive arguments that such a person is on the right and perhaps even on the far right. 

Apparently you added in a little snip at the end "and its interesting that even though this argument has been made multiple times in this thread it is only now that you see a need to interject" that I'll comment on.

What I feel the need to interject on is when people make demonstrably false claims that can be easily shown to be false through some basic googling. That's why your statement was the only one I felt the need to interject. If I see any other similar statements that I can easily disprove I'll do so. 

"Last statement is a reasonable argument to make, I only commented because you were stating trends with no evidence where all polling data goes against your assertion."

ah ok but smearing someone as far right because they dislike islam which has occurred throughout this thread(by people who for the most part ironically probably dislike islam) isn't as much of an issue

"Now if you're anti islam"

the vast majority of people on this site are anti islam i'd wager doesn't make this site right wing

"write mostly for rightwing new paper outlets"

links? and even if that is the case its kind of a useless point if the furthest "right" thing you can muster up from his articles is that he dislikes islam

"spend your time defending far right activist groups"

well this is a new one, can I get a link?



o_O.Q said:
Torillian said:

Last statement is a reasonable argument to make, I only commented because you were stating trends with no evidence where all polling data goes against your assertion. The idea that one can have a problem with islam and be a leftist is reasonable. 

Now if you're anti islam, write mostly for rightwing new paper outlets and spend your time defending far right activist groups I think one can start to make some reasonable inductive arguments that such a person is on the right and perhaps even on the far right. 

Apparently you added in a little snip at the end "and its interesting that even though this argument has been made multiple times in this thread it is only now that you see a need to interject" that I'll comment on.

What I feel the need to interject on is when people make demonstrably false claims that can be easily shown to be false through some basic googling. That's why your statement was the only one I felt the need to interject. If I see any other similar statements that I can easily disprove I'll do so. 

"Last statement is a reasonable argument to make, I only commented because you were stating trends with no evidence where all polling data goes against your assertion."

ah ok but smearing someone as far right because they dislike islam which has occurred throughout this thread(by people who for the most part ironically probably dislike islam) isn't as much of an issue

"Now if you're anti islam"

the vast majority of people on this site are anti islam i'd wager doesn't make this site right wing

"write mostly for rightwing new paper outlets"

links? and even if that is the case its kind of a useless point if the furthest right thing you can muster up from his articles is that he dislikes islam

"spend your time defending far right activist groups"

well this is a new one, can I get a link?

"ah ok but smearing someone as far right because they dislike islam which has occurred throughout this thread(by people who for the most part ironically probably dislike islam) isn't as much of an issue"

If you can show me polling that indicates that those statements are wrong then I'll comment. The interpretation of whether or not an individual is right wing based on their dislike of islam is an inductive claim that I cannot fully disprove. Your statement, on the other hand, was a deductive statement about trends on a group level, something that can be answered by polling to show you're wrong. 

"the vast majority of people on this site are anti islam i'd wager doesn't make this site right wing"

Already agreed that one can be anti islam and left wing, I'm making a holistic argument which is the only way one can inductively reason about a person's intentions. 

"links? and even if that is the case its kind of a useless point if the furthest right thing you can muster up from his articles is that he dislikes islam"

Wiki says he's written for "The Wall Street Journal, the New York Post and National Review," and the analysis I've found indicates all three of those are right wing news outlets. 

"well this is a new one, can I get a link?"

He was filming a counter protest of the proud boys and has done similar things for the group Patriot Prayer. You don't think that's something done in defense of a far right activist group? He goes to conflicts between the left and right and films the left doing shitty things. That's defense of the right. 

What would this person need to do to prove to you they are on the right? If he just says he's on the left but all his actions go against that do you just take his word for it? I think that one can make a pretty convincing argument that he is on the right, what evidence do you have that he's actually on the left?



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Torillian said:
o_O.Q said:

"Last statement is a reasonable argument to make, I only commented because you were stating trends with no evidence where all polling data goes against your assertion."

ah ok but smearing someone as far right because they dislike islam which has occurred throughout this thread(by people who for the most part ironically probably dislike islam) isn't as much of an issue

"Now if you're anti islam"

the vast majority of people on this site are anti islam i'd wager doesn't make this site right wing

"write mostly for rightwing new paper outlets"

links? and even if that is the case its kind of a useless point if the furthest right thing you can muster up from his articles is that he dislikes islam

"spend your time defending far right activist groups"

well this is a new one, can I get a link?

"ah ok but smearing someone as far right because they dislike islam which has occurred throughout this thread(by people who for the most part ironically probably dislike islam) isn't as much of an issue"

If you can show me polling that indicates that those statements are wrong then I'll comment. The interpretation of whether or not an individual is right wing based on their dislike of islam is an inductive claim that I cannot fully disprove. Your statement, on the other hand, was a deductive statement about trends on a group level, something that can be answered by polling to show you're wrong. 

"the vast majority of people on this site are anti islam i'd wager doesn't make this site right wing"

Already agreed that one can be anti islam and left wing, I'm making a holistic argument which is the only way one can inductively reason about a person's intentions. 

"links? and even if that is the case its kind of a useless point if the furthest right thing you can muster up from his articles is that he dislikes islam"

Wiki says he's written for "The Wall Street Journal, the New York Post and National Review," and the analysis I've found indicates all three of those are right wing news outlets. 

"well this is a new one, can I get a link?"

He was filming a counter protest of the proud boys and has done similar things for the group Patriot Prayer. You don't think that's something done in defense of a far right activist group? He goes to conflicts between the left and right and films the left doing shitty things. That's defense of the right. 

What would this person need to do to prove to you they are on the right? If he just says he's on the left but all his actions go against that do you just take his word for it? I think that one can make a pretty convincing argument that he is on the right, what evidence do you have that he's actually on the left?

What are you guys even talk about when you say anti islam? It's such a broad statement. Is everyone who doesn't follow one of the islamic schools "anti islam"? If so it would be a very trivial statment and "not muslim" would be a better term.



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MrWayne said:
Torillian said:

"ah ok but smearing someone as far right because they dislike islam which has occurred throughout this thread(by people who for the most part ironically probably dislike islam) isn't as much of an issue"

If you can show me polling that indicates that those statements are wrong then I'll comment. The interpretation of whether or not an individual is right wing based on their dislike of islam is an inductive claim that I cannot fully disprove. Your statement, on the other hand, was a deductive statement about trends on a group level, something that can be answered by polling to show you're wrong. 

"the vast majority of people on this site are anti islam i'd wager doesn't make this site right wing"

Already agreed that one can be anti islam and left wing, I'm making a holistic argument which is the only way one can inductively reason about a person's intentions. 

"links? and even if that is the case its kind of a useless point if the furthest right thing you can muster up from his articles is that he dislikes islam"

Wiki says he's written for "The Wall Street Journal, the New York Post and National Review," and the analysis I've found indicates all three of those are right wing news outlets. 

"well this is a new one, can I get a link?"

He was filming a counter protest of the proud boys and has done similar things for the group Patriot Prayer. You don't think that's something done in defense of a far right activist group? He goes to conflicts between the left and right and films the left doing shitty things. That's defense of the right. 

What would this person need to do to prove to you they are on the right? If he just says he's on the left but all his actions go against that do you just take his word for it? I think that one can make a pretty convincing argument that he is on the right, what evidence do you have that he's actually on the left?

What are you guys even talk about when you say anti islam? It's such a broad statement. Is everyone who doesn't follow one of the islamic schools "anti islam"? If so it would be a very trivial statment and "not muslim" would be a better term.

I would define anti-islam in this case as someone who fears islam's growing influence in "the west" not just as someone who is not muslim. The polling I originally showed asked people whether or not they would be willing to vote for a muslim for president. If you are not willing to vote for a muslim for office regardless of their politics I would consider that "anti-islam". 



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Torillian said:
o_O.Q said:

"Last statement is a reasonable argument to make, I only commented because you were stating trends with no evidence where all polling data goes against your assertion."

ah ok but smearing someone as far right because they dislike islam which has occurred throughout this thread(by people who for the most part ironically probably dislike islam) isn't as much of an issue

"Now if you're anti islam"

the vast majority of people on this site are anti islam i'd wager doesn't make this site right wing

"write mostly for rightwing new paper outlets"

links? and even if that is the case its kind of a useless point if the furthest right thing you can muster up from his articles is that he dislikes islam

"spend your time defending far right activist groups"

well this is a new one, can I get a link?

"ah ok but smearing someone as far right because they dislike islam which has occurred throughout this thread(by people who for the most part ironically probably dislike islam) isn't as much of an issue"

If you can show me polling that indicates that those statements are wrong then I'll comment. The interpretation of whether or not an individual is right wing based on their dislike of islam is an inductive claim that I cannot fully disprove. Your statement, on the other hand, was a deductive statement about trends on a group level, something that can be answered by polling to show you're wrong. 

"the vast majority of people on this site are anti islam i'd wager doesn't make this site right wing"

Already agreed that one can be anti islam and left wing, I'm making a holistic argument which is the only way one can inductively reason about a person's intentions. 

"links? and even if that is the case its kind of a useless point if the furthest right thing you can muster up from his articles is that he dislikes islam"

Wiki says he's written for "The Wall Street Journal, the New York Post and National Review," and the analysis I've found indicates all three of those are right wing news outlets. 

"well this is a new one, can I get a link?"

He was filming a counter protest of the proud boys and has done similar things for the group Patriot Prayer. You don't think that's something done in defense of a far right activist group? He goes to conflicts between the left and right and films the left doing shitty things. That's defense of the right. 

What would this person need to do to prove to you they are on the right? If he just says he's on the left but all his actions go against that do you just take his word for it? I think that one can make a pretty convincing argument that he is on the right, what evidence do you have that he's actually on the left?

" The interpretation of whether or not an individual is right wing based on their dislike of islam is an inductive claim that I cannot fully disprove. "

do you know anyone on the left that dislikes islam? if so is it not stupid or dishonest to claim that dislike of islam automatically makes someone far right?

"Wiki says he's written for "The Wall Street Journal, the New York Post and National Review," and the analysis I've found indicates all three of those are right wing news outlets. "

and to reiterate the most far "right" thing he has written is dislike of islam which you have concluded is not a right wing characteristic... or is this just guilt by association?

"He was filming a counter protest of the proud boys and has done similar things for the group Patriot Prayer."

oh shit well I guess CNN and MSNBC must be nazis because they've filmed nazis in the past right?

"He goes to conflicts between the left and right and films the left doing shitty things. That's defense of the right. "

you mean to tell me that a reporter films things? i'm so shocked right now

maybe leftists happen to be more violent at protests has that ever occurred to you?

CNN and MSNBC have never shown footage of any of the bullshit far leftists do, is this a concession then that CNN and MSNBC are far left?

"What would this person need to do to prove to you they are on the right?"

Actually advocate for far right policies as i would assume any sensible person would use that as an assessment not someone doing their job as a reporter

"I think that one can make a pretty convincing argument that he is on the right"

can you name for me his right leaning policies?

"what evidence do you have that he's actually on the left?"

i don't know the man personally which is why i'm not making assertions about his politics as you feel comfortable doing in this ridiculous attempt to somehow divert away from criticism of antifa



o_O.Q said:
Torillian said:

"ah ok but smearing someone as far right because they dislike islam which has occurred throughout this thread(by people who for the most part ironically probably dislike islam) isn't as much of an issue"

If you can show me polling that indicates that those statements are wrong then I'll comment. The interpretation of whether or not an individual is right wing based on their dislike of islam is an inductive claim that I cannot fully disprove. Your statement, on the other hand, was a deductive statement about trends on a group level, something that can be answered by polling to show you're wrong. 

"the vast majority of people on this site are anti islam i'd wager doesn't make this site right wing"

Already agreed that one can be anti islam and left wing, I'm making a holistic argument which is the only way one can inductively reason about a person's intentions. 

"links? and even if that is the case its kind of a useless point if the furthest right thing you can muster up from his articles is that he dislikes islam"

Wiki says he's written for "The Wall Street Journal, the New York Post and National Review," and the analysis I've found indicates all three of those are right wing news outlets. 

"well this is a new one, can I get a link?"

He was filming a counter protest of the proud boys and has done similar things for the group Patriot Prayer. You don't think that's something done in defense of a far right activist group? He goes to conflicts between the left and right and films the left doing shitty things. That's defense of the right. 

What would this person need to do to prove to you they are on the right? If he just says he's on the left but all his actions go against that do you just take his word for it? I think that one can make a pretty convincing argument that he is on the right, what evidence do you have that he's actually on the left?

" The interpretation of whether or not an individual is right wing based on their dislike of islam is an inductive claim that I cannot fully disprove. "

do you know anyone on the left that dislikes islam? if so is it not stupid or dishonest to claim that dislike of islam automatically makes someone far right?

"Wiki says he's written for "The Wall Street Journal, the New York Post and National Review," and the analysis I've found indicates all three of those are right wing news outlets. "

and to reiterate the most far "right" thing he has written is dislike of islam which you have concluded is not a right wing characteristic... or is this just guilt by association?

"He was filming a counter protest of the proud boys and has done similar things for the group Patriot Prayer."

oh shit well I guess CNN and MSNBC must be nazis because they've filmed nazis in the past right?

"He goes to conflicts between the left and right and films the left doing shitty things. That's defense of the right. "

you mean to tell me that a reporter films things? i'm so shocked right now

maybe leftists happen to be more violent at protests has that ever occurred to you?

CNN and MSNBC have never shown footage of any of the bullshit far leftists do, is this a concession then that CNN and MSNBC are far left?

"What would this person need to do to prove to you they are on the right?"

Actually advocate for far right policies as i would assume any sensible person would use that as an assessment not someone doing their job as a reporter

"I think that one can make a pretty convincing argument that he is on the right"

can you name for me his right leaning policies?

"what evidence do you have that he's actually on the left?"

i don't know the man personally which is why i'm not making assertions about his politics as you feel comfortable doing in this ridiculous attempt to somehow divert away from criticism of antifa

I'm good, I don't really feel like arguing with people who debate in bad faith. 

You've called my intentions in question several times, it's tiresome. I'm having a debate with you about whether or not one can inductively reason that Andy Ngo is right wing. I find that debate interesting. If you want to criticize antifa go right ahead, but I don't find that an interesting discussion. People shouldn't throw punches, we agree on that (presumably) and therefore it's a boring circle jerk that I don't really have interest in. 

I entered this discussion because you said something factually incorrect. I'm glad you conceded to the facts, I'll leave you to continue your discussion and I hope you keep your statements grounded in reality so I can avoid talking to you again if possible. 

Last edited by Torillian - on 10 July 2019

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Torillian said:
MrWayne said:

What are you guys even talk about when you say anti islam? It's such a broad statement. Is everyone who doesn't follow one of the islamic schools "anti islam"? If so it would be a very trivial statment and "not muslim" would be a better term.

I would define anti-islam in this case as someone who fears islam's growing influence in "the west" not just as someone who is not muslim. The polling I originally showed asked people whether or not they would be willing to vote for a muslim for president. If you are not willing to vote for a muslim for office regardless of their politics I would consider that "anti-islam". 

Ok I actually agree with your definition of anti islam but I would cross out the "in the west" part, It's entirely possible to be a muslim living in the middle east and still be against growing islamic influence if we talk about islam in a political context. Maybe anti islamist would be an even better term to distinguish between islam as a personal religious believe and islam as an ideology.



Torillian said:
o_O.Q said:

" The interpretation of whether or not an individual is right wing based on their dislike of islam is an inductive claim that I cannot fully disprove. "

do you know anyone on the left that dislikes islam? if so is it not stupid or dishonest to claim that dislike of islam automatically makes someone far right?

"Wiki says he's written for "The Wall Street Journal, the New York Post and National Review," and the analysis I've found indicates all three of those are right wing news outlets. "

and to reiterate the most far "right" thing he has written is dislike of islam which you have concluded is not a right wing characteristic... or is this just guilt by association?

"He was filming a counter protest of the proud boys and has done similar things for the group Patriot Prayer."

oh shit well I guess CNN and MSNBC must be nazis because they've filmed nazis in the past right?

"He goes to conflicts between the left and right and films the left doing shitty things. That's defense of the right. "

you mean to tell me that a reporter films things? i'm so shocked right now

maybe leftists happen to be more violent at protests has that ever occurred to you?

CNN and MSNBC have never shown footage of any of the bullshit far leftists do, is this a concession then that CNN and MSNBC are far left?

"What would this person need to do to prove to you they are on the right?"

Actually advocate for far right policies as i would assume any sensible person would use that as an assessment not someone doing their job as a reporter

"I think that one can make a pretty convincing argument that he is on the right"

can you name for me his right leaning policies?

"what evidence do you have that he's actually on the left?"

i don't know the man personally which is why i'm not making assertions about his politics as you feel comfortable doing in this ridiculous attempt to somehow divert away from criticism of antifa

I'm good, I don't really feel like arguing with people who debate in bad faith. 

You've called my intentions in question several times, it's tiresome. I'm having a debate with you about whether or not one can inductively reason that Andy Ngo is right wing. I find that debate interesting. If you want to criticize antifa go right ahead, but I don't find that an interesting discussion. People shouldn't throw punches, we agree on that (presumably) and therefore it's a boring circle jerk that I don't really have interest in. 

I entered this discussion because you said something factually incorrect. I'm glad you conceded to the facts, feel free to continue your discussion and keep your statements grounded in reality so I can avoid talking to you again if possible. 

"I'm good, I don't really feel like arguing with people who debate in bad faith. 

You've called my intentions in question several times, it's tiresome."

well that's pretty ironic

" I'm having a debate with you about whether or not one can inductively reason that Andy Ngo is right wing."

what are his right wing policies beyond filming terrorist assholes in portland?

terrorists that many people feel are taking over portland

"Texas Senator Ted Cruz accused Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler of ordering police to stand down and allow antifa protesters to physically engage conservative activists over the weekend."

https://www.newsweek.com/ted-cruz-antifa-portland-mayor-ted-wheeler-investigation-1446914

an 5:30 in this video you can see police standing idly by while antifa obstructs traffic and assaults people

but i'm forgetting, the author of this video is a nazi because he took this footage

for some unfathomable reason you think people wanting to oppose these assholes makes them "far right" lmao then accuse me of arguing in bad faith

"I'm having a debate with you about whether or not one can inductively reason that Andy Ngo is right wing."

yeah and you think that him filming people who appear to be attempting to take over the city makes him right wing, not his policies, not an actual declaration that he's right wing, but his opposition to terrorists, what am I supposed to do with reasoning like that?