"

Gender identity is the psychological gender that they feel", I mean it as a subconscious function of the psyche."

and what about those who detransition and regret their transition? if its a subconscious operation that's embedded in them why are some wrong about their transition? 

furthermore if its a social construct as you have been arguing then it can't really be an embedded subconscious operation can it? because it should be in flux depending on the social pressures the person is experiencing

for clarification are you claiming this "subconscious function of the psyche" is an aspect that is there from birth and is innate and unchanging? or is it a social construct that the person develops through interacting with their environment?

"When you say, "incels feel...like all women are whores.""

its a social construct, they come to perceive reality that way because of social pressures that mould their minds leading them to a certain conclusion

and if you were actually consistent you would acknowledge that you've said the same about gender before(well you've said that its a social construct but you may disagree with how i've defined it)

"I'm done."

i would've been done when people started implying that clothing determines gender but its morbid curiosity that is driving me, i seriously want to see if i'm missing something here and this really isn't as stupid as i think it is

when the other guy from earlier in the thread criticised me for calling unicorn a gender but then basically said that gender could be infinite i had to come back and seek clarification on that because i don't understand how someone can seriously hold both beliefs in their head at the same time

The situation isn't necessarily as hopeless as it may at first appear. It really depends on the extent to which a given country's feminist movement is influenced by the American women's movement because it's the American women's movement from whence intersectionality theory derives; intersectionality theory being the glue that connects feminist politics to queer theory in the contemporary imagination. In Spain, for example, the women's movement is more powerful and led instead by the lesbian feminists, as you can tell by their slogans and choices of imagery and attire (e.g. only lesbian feminists use the term "hetero-patriarchy" and the March 8th Movement organizers march in lesbian pride purple emblazoned with the second wave woman power symbol) and the March 8th Movement is having a real impact and influence across Europe. Likewise, , South Korea's Ditch the Corset movement is significantly influenced by the literature of lesbian feminist scholar, author, and activist Dr. Sheila Jeffreys.

Radical feminists, including the lesbians, are also a major faction of the movement in the United Kingdom, where there never really was a proper "third wave" or "fourth wave" like happened here in the U.S., and, unlike here in the U.S., over there they lead the movement against transgender politics. I think that helps because many if not most people who embrace transgenderism wind up doing so by way of introduction thereto by the intersectional feminists today. If feminist politics form a path in, they can therefore also form a path out for many of the same people. It's probably no coincidence that many ideas of the transgender movement are highly unpopular in the UK at present. (For example, a recent survey of Scottish women found that 79% want to retain single-sex facilities ranging from restrooms to locker rooms and sports teams.)

I guess so. But he's still a male, even if he wants to be called a woman. Does he get to use the women's bathroom, too, then?

"Gender isn't derived from clothing"

ok what is gender derived from?

here you appear to conclude that its what a person chooses to identify as

"How do I differentiate between the two?  By appearance, unless the person says otherwise. "

you are saying here that your ultimate decision is based on what the person claims to identify as

" It's about understanding there are exceptions, and trying to make laws that harm people who are exceptions is wrong."

aren't you arguing that the classic understanding of what a man is and what a woman is need to be expanded to include those who identify as such?

you aren't treating them as if they are exceptions but instead rendering the classification meaningless to ensure there are no exceptions

which laws are you referring to? you mean stopping male assigned at birth people from accessing women's washrooms? to me that's for women to decide, if they are ok with it then let it happen, even put in urinals if it comes to that

"when if you actually read anything I've said, you'd understand that I admit that such a thing could happen."

you instead of dealing with what i was saying tried to twist it to make it seem like i was talking about different species when i was clearly talking about identity

its ironic though that you and the others pushing this idea tried to fall back onto biology to try to invalidate my argument, to me it indicates that on some level you don't really have conviction in this idea but that's my opinion

"There are plenty of pronouns that don't differentiate between men and women."

in the context we are speaking in we are referring to people transitioning between man and woman, obviously meaning that the relevant pronouns in this discussion are he and she which are used to differentiate between the two

"That doesn't mean it's subconscious."

its subconscious and embedded from around the age of 2 or so from childhood and i'm unsure but i'd expect there may even be biological instincts from birth that facilitate the differentiation

a young kid knows to suck on its mother's breasts for sustenance for example

"If I write down a brand new shape, your brain doesn't subconsciously know what it is.  You have to consciously learn what it is."

again certain aspects of our perception are instinctual and exist from birth, this probably isn't entirely the case with differentiation between men and women but it sure develops pretty damn quickly

"Even then you still have to make conscious decisions about what things are. "

when you recoil after touching a hot pan do you have to think about whether it was hot or not or do you just recoil instinctively?

what about if someone throws something at you?

what about when a dog barks?

i find it hard to believe that you are trying to get me to believe that you have to stop and think in order to recognise people you know or whether someone is a woman or a man

"Just because something has a subconscious element doesn't mean it's beyond your control.  "

in this case it clearly is, i want you to go outside, go to the nearest town and walk around and every time you see someone that is clearly a woman try to convince yourself that its really barack obama

try doing that for a month or so then send me your results

"Can you not see that there are biological complexities that make gender disphoria a possible thing?"

never denied that it was a thing and that sucks for those people, but that doesn't mean that we should completely upend how society works 

blind people are inconvenienced by how towns are organised, do we restructure towns entirely to make things perfect for them or do they have to accept to some degree that things will be a little harder for them?

well in reality we've settled on the latter

this is besides the fact that as i've said the differentiation process is subconscious anyway, people may lie to themselves and say that a man in a dress is a woman but their perception will tell them otherwise 

"That doesn't mean they are lying to themselves."

but come on, in some cases its clearly delusion or a phase and that's why they detransition

 "I never said brain structure is binary.  There are differences in brain structures, and there are variations between those brain structures. Clearly non-binary."

fair enough, ok so brains exist on a spectrum is that it? and each type should have a gender? this is a question i'm not saying this is your claim, i'm asking because it seems like that's where this is heading

"Male, but they were born female."

their appearance is what you'd expect from a man and obviously no one would hassle them for using a male restroom

but that's not what this discussion is about, if this was just about appearance then i wouldn't have an issue

"

"How do I differentiate between the two?  By appearance, unless the person says otherwise. "

you are saying here that your ultimate decision is based on what the person claims to identify as"

that is my problem

Sure if he wants to go to the women's bathroom. I witnessed many occassions were women(the ones with the real pussies and who weren't dressed like men) wanted to go to the men's bathroom, everyone was ok with that.

btw just because someone dresses like a woman doesn't force you to date this person. That probably does not apply to you RaptorChris but I think some people are worried that if we treat trans women/men like biological women/men they also have to get attracted by transgender women/men, which is obviously bullshit. 

Nobody is attracted to every single individual from the opposite(or same) sex.

"but I think some people are worried that if we treat trans women/men like biological women/men they also have to get attracted by transgender women/men, which is obviously bullshit. "

no, no one has ever said that's their problem with this, the problem is that its delusional nonsense that cannot be rationally justified

i honestly feel like if i'm sitting in a church with some of the nonsense i've seen with regards to this topic and that's putting it mildly

but for clarification were you implying earlier that you determine gender through clothing? if not how do you determine gender?

Sorry I didn't know that you asked every single person on this planet about this topic. Can you show me your notes about that?

Not only clothing but appearance, how do you determine what gender a random person you just meet has? Do you ask them to show their primary sex organs? or a DNA test?

Bingo.

I forreal thought it was an old macau nomming on a blackberry.

Yeah that's good.

Why is there even such a big discussion about it if most of the new generated genders come from gender politics that are seperated from the science on the subject?