By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - Muslim parents in UK protest school children's storybook featuring same gender parents

DrDoomz said:
MrWayne said:

1) I don't think your question has anything to do the topic. This is not at all about legalisation.

2) No most people are exactly condeming their action. The action is not just people protesting, the action is people protesting in order to remove LGBT+ people from school books.

3) This is a overly dramatic way to describe a mandatory education system. I think mandatory education systems are a huge achievement and something very good but you seem to disagree with me.

4) Also nobody is disputing that an individual can have its own values and the possibility to pass those values on to its children. The question is who should decide how children are educated? the parents or society aka the state?

1) Mandatory education has a lot to do with legislation does it not? I know it's not ALL ABOUT legislation but legislation has something to do with this so I feel that my question was not off topic.

My point was to illustrate what people should find condmenable. We condemn actions not thoughts.

2) And I will disagree with them if it is about removing LGBT people from books.  The ones I agree with are the ones simply asking to opt out. They should have that choice.

3) When one can insert one's politics into mandatory education. You make one's politics mandatory. The fact is, I agree with the LGBT lessons being there. I disagree about it being mandatory seeing as there could be a time wherein I will disagree with the majority politics at the time and I would also want to be heard when that happens.

4) I'm sorry but the current majority does not get to decide how I raise my kids. My values may be in line with the majority atm, but that will not always be the case and when that time comes, I reserve the right to protest and let my voice be heard.

1) I worded this badly. We already established in this thread that the protest is not illegal and nobody wants it to be illegalised so the question about their thought seemed a little bit redundant/point less to me.

2) Now that's a much more interesting discussion I think. I'm against having a opt out choice. Why? Because it would be against to reason those books exist in the first place. The children whose perants don't tell them about other cultures and LGBT people or tell them bad things(sinner, molesters, etc.) are the target audience for this change in the school books.

3) But that's how school is since the beginning, it is impossible to make school unpolitical, it will always reflect the current political consensus. In a democracy you can decide what politics influence the school system.

4) You, these protesting muslims and everyone else can raise their kids as they want, at home but not at school, That's the way it is in pretty much every  western country.



Around the Network
Azuren said:
RolStoppable said:

I take it, you'd really call people naziphobes for criticizing nazi ideologies.

Naziphobe isn't a word. Now put those goalposts back where you found them.

Indeed, naziphobe isn't a word. That's because criticism of things that are objectively bad don't fall under the umbrella of phobias. That's why it's nonsensical of you to call it islamophobia when people condemn the muslims that this topic is about.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV (360+PS3) would outsell SSBB. I was wrong.

A Biased Review Reloaded / Open Your Eyes / Switch Gamers Club

Edited due to replying to wrong person. :p

Last edited by DrDoomz - on 09 June 2019

MrWayne said:
DrDoomz said:

1) Mandatory education has a lot to do with legislation does it not? I know it's not ALL ABOUT legislation but legislation has something to do with this so I feel that my question was not off topic.

My point was to illustrate what people should find condmenable. We condemn actions not thoughts.

2) And I will disagree with them if it is about removing LGBT people from books.  The ones I agree with are the ones simply asking to opt out. They should have that choice.

3) When one can insert one's politics into mandatory education. You make one's politics mandatory. The fact is, I agree with the LGBT lessons being there. I disagree about it being mandatory seeing as there could be a time wherein I will disagree with the majority politics at the time and I would also want to be heard when that happens.

4) I'm sorry but the current majority does not get to decide how I raise my kids. My values may be in line with the majority atm, but that will not always be the case and when that time comes, I reserve the right to protest and let my voice be heard.

1) I worded this badly. We already established in this thread that the protest is not illegal and nobody wants it to be illegalised so the question about their thought seemed a little bit redundant/point less to me.

2) Now that's a much more interesting discussion I think. I'm against having a opt out choice. Why? Because it would be against to reason those books exist in the first place. The children whose perants don't tell them about other cultures and LGBT people or tell them bad things(sinner, molesters, etc.) are the target audience for this change in the school books.

3) But that's how school is since the beginning, it is impossible to make school unpolitical, it will always reflect the current political consensus. In a democracy you can decide what politics influence the school system.

4) You, these protesting muslims and everyone else can raise their kids as they want, at home but not at school, That's the way it is in pretty much every  western country.

1) People condemn them for their thoughts (Islamaphobia is a thought). I feel that this is not how society should work.

2) The overall intention behind the books may be good but as the saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". This is about government telling parents how to raise their kids and forcing them to assimilate. No one should be ok with this. Are you seriously ok with giving up all your rights as a parent just so you can push one good act thru? As a father, I am not. There are way too many things government may do that I can disagree with for me to do this.

3) No, schools reflect the political consensus of the teachers/educators, not society. And the current political climate can change within a few years so while you seem to be ok with everything now, consider what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot and the protesting parents became the majority (or at least a strong enough minority to impact elections) and start pushing their political agendas in schools (considering birth and immigration rates, might not be all that far fetched). Not so attractive now is it? That is why politics should always be out of schools IMO.

4) I disagree. Plenty of schools allow their students to opt out. As far as I can see, I can see both parents AND students protesting to opt out of this class, the only ones insisting are the educators...



DrDoomz said:
Wedge said:

To counteract this... We also have the issue of who is genuinely, morally right.
And I would argue that several thousand year old values are irrelevant to today... Let alone values from even a few decades ago.

But what about the LGBT children and the bullying, harassment, missed opportunities, bigotry and so on they face? Don't they get to live a safe and happy life and be treated as equals in all aspects of society?

Being "morally right" does not make your rights superior to others.

The harassment, bullying and missed opportunities, etc. are the actions. In which case there is a clear act and a clear right being trampled on. In which case there is something we can target and condemn/punish said actors.

They have every right to a happy life, but I feel one should not have the right to force others to behave according to what makes one happy.

There is a clear delineation between "Your evil actions hurt and oppress me" and "I will oppress and hurt you because you have evil thoughts". 

I didn't say that?!? You quoted the wrong person DrDoomz



Around the Network
Wedge said:
DrDoomz said:

Being "morally right" does not make your rights superior to others.

The harassment, bullying and missed opportunities, etc. are the actions. In which case there is a clear act and a clear right being trampled on. In which case there is something we can target and condemn/punish said actors.

They have every right to a happy life, but I feel one should not have the right to force others to behave according to what makes one happy.

There is a clear delineation between "Your evil actions hurt and oppress me" and "I will oppress and hurt you because you have evil thoughts". 

I didn't say that?!? You quoted the wrong person DrDoomz

Haha. Your formatting is a bit confusing. O_O didn't know who was quoting what and what the heck was going on. Pls disregard then and I guess I'll edit. :p



Pemalite said:

To counteract this... We also have the issue of who is genuinely, morally right.
And I would argue that several thousand year old values are irrelevant to today... Let alone values from even a few decades ago.

But what about the LGBT children and the bullying, harassment, missed opportunities, bigotry and so on they face? Don't they get to live a safe and happy life and be treated as equals in all aspects of society?

Being "morally right" does not make your rights superior to others.

The harassment, bullying and missed opportunities, etc. are the actions. In which case there is a clear act and a clear right being trampled on. In which case there is something we can target and condemn/punish said actors.

They have every right to a happy life, but I feel one should not have the right to force others to behave according to what makes one happy.

There is a clear delineation between "Your evil actions hurt and oppress me" and "I will oppress and hurt you because you have evil thoughts". 



DrDoomz said:

1) People condemn them for their thoughts (Islamaphobia is a thought). I feel that this is not how society should work.

2) The overall intention behind the books may be good but as the saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". This is about government telling parents how to raise their kids and forcing them to assimilate. No one should be ok with this. Are you seriously ok with giving up all your rights as a parent just so you can push one good act thru? As a father, I am not. There are way too many things government may do that I can disagree with for me to do this.

3) No, schools reflect the political consensus of the teachers/educators, not society. And the current political climate can change within a few years so while you seem to be ok with everything now, consider what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot and the protesting parents became the majority (or at least a strong enough minority to impact elections) and start pushing their political agendas in schools (considering birth and immigration rates, might not be all that far fetched). Not so attractive now is it? That is why politics should always be out of schools IMO.

4) I disagree. Plenty of schools allow their students to opt out. As far as I can see, I can see both parents AND students protesting to opt out of this class, the only ones insisting are the educators...

I think we are finally getting to the meat of this drawn out discussion. For the people who have had trouble to determine what islamophobia is, the part I highlighted is an example; the UK might turn into an islamic state and then the rules will be turned on the people who represent the majority right now.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV (360+PS3) would outsell SSBB. I was wrong.

A Biased Review Reloaded / Open Your Eyes / Switch Gamers Club

RolStoppable said:
DrDoomz said:

1) People condemn them for their thoughts (Islamaphobia is a thought). I feel that this is not how society should work.

2) The overall intention behind the books may be good but as the saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". This is about government telling parents how to raise their kids and forcing them to assimilate. No one should be ok with this. Are you seriously ok with giving up all your rights as a parent just so you can push one good act thru? As a father, I am not. There are way too many things government may do that I can disagree with for me to do this.

3) No, schools reflect the political consensus of the teachers/educators, not society. And the current political climate can change within a few years so while you seem to be ok with everything now, consider what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot and the protesting parents became the majority (or at least a strong enough minority to impact elections) and start pushing their political agendas in schools (considering birth and immigration rates, might not be all that far fetched). Not so attractive now is it? That is why politics should always be out of schools IMO.

4) I disagree. Plenty of schools allow their students to opt out. As far as I can see, I can see both parents AND students protesting to opt out of this class, the only ones insisting are the educators...

I think we are finally getting to the meat of this drawn out discussion. For the people who have had trouble to determine what islamophobia is, the part I highlighted is an example; the UK might turn into an islamic state and then the rules will be turned on the people who represent the majority right now.

I do not know how you got #Islamophobia from "if the shoe is on the other foot (and there is a chance of that happening), you won't like it" but if a strawman is something you feel helps you sleep at night then feel free.



DrDoomz said:
RolStoppable said:

I think we are finally getting to the meat of this drawn out discussion. For the people who have had trouble to determine what islamophobia is, the part I highlighted is an example; the UK might turn into an islamic state and then the rules will be turned on the people who represent the majority right now.

I do not know how you got #Islamophobia from "if the shoe is on the other foot (and there is a chance of that happening), you won't like it" but if a strawman is something you feel helps you sleep at night then feel free.

I've been wondering for a while what your real motivation in this discussion is, why you are so against tolerance being taught at schools. The statement I highlighted was one driven by irrational fear because it's not likely at all for that to happen. None of the European countries will turn into islamic states, however, exactly that is a surprisingly popular thought among local people of the political right.

What those people apparently don't get is that ultra-conservative muslims don't migrate to Europe with some kind of masterplan to replace the current majority of a non-islamic population eventually. Ultra-conservative muslims are pretty scared themselves, because moving to Europe and the ensuing exposure to the local culture seriously threatens their way of life. For example, female members of their family are prone to de-emphasize islam because they like it that men and women are seen as equal. Even in the event that people from muslim origin will eventually constitute the majority in Europe, by that time the majority of them won't be particularly religious anymore, so the biggest difference between them and the current majority will most likely be skin color.

So your proposal to give in to the muslims that this topic is about as preparation for "our" kids to not face potential islamic oppression in the future is a proposal that is grounded in irrational fear.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV (360+PS3) would outsell SSBB. I was wrong.

A Biased Review Reloaded / Open Your Eyes / Switch Gamers Club