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Forums - Sony Discussion - Offical Sell-in numbers for PS3 - credit to ArmGunar.

paulrage2 on 29 May 2019
DonFerrari said:
Mandalore76 said:

The WiiU was discontinued as a product that wasn't selling well.  But, Nintendo pushed it as best they could (advertising early on could/should have been pushed much harder though to be honest) for just over 4 years until the Switch was ready to launch.  Unlike the Virtual Boy which Nintendo dropped in less than a year.  Or Sega's Dreamcast, which was discontinued after only 1 year 7 months in NA (2 years 4 months including Japan).  The Wii U still has a "Games Page" on Nintendo.com showing release dates updated through April of this year, over 2 years after discontinuation (https://www.nintendo.com/games/game-guide/#filter/:q=&dFR[availability][0]=Available%20now&dFR[platform][0]=Wii%20U&indexName=noa_aem_game_en_us_release_des).  Wii U is still featured all over the "My Nintendo" site with discounts for software and digital content (https://my.nintendo.com/reward_categories).  So, no, they haven't "hidden" or erased the Wii U from memory.

Nintendo's consoles typically change more radically from one system to the next than "every console" by comparison.  But, to put it in terms that you might more readily accept, it was a failure that was a necessary failure to get to where Nintendo wanted to go.  Like the PS3 adding the expensive Bluray drive to pave the way for the PS4, the Wii U gamepad was a necessary step towards the portable application of the Switch.

Putting Virtua Boy in the comparison doesn't make much sense since it was a basically a total catastrophe.

And sorry, but Nintendo didn't pushed the best they could. They certainly could have sold it much cheaper and increased number of releases by increasing the size of the team.

I actually don't remember anything outstanding they tried to make the sales of WiiU good. It seemed more like they saw early on that the system was going to do bad and just bought their time until they were ready for Switch (which probably couldn't have been released earlier, not only because it also is successor to 3DS, but also that technology for the affordable price wasn't ready yet), similar to Sony that as soon as they saw PSVita couldn't be a success they just let it die (versus PS3 where they done all they could because they thought it was still possible to sell good).

Anyway that isn't much relevant. The point I wanted to explain initially is why PS3 is considered a BIGGER MONEY LOSSER than WiiU. And that had to do with selling 85M consoles with a lot of them being 100-200 loss per sale, versus WiiU more or less selling 15M for break even.

24 million PS3s was sold at loss, the other 63 million was profitable. Sony also did a lot of money with games sold and PS Plus since 2010. Mark Cerny already said that PS4 would never happen if PS3 didn't maked success. WiiU was a total desaster.



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mjk45 on 29 May 2019
paulrage2 said:
DonFerrari said:

Putting Virtua Boy in the comparison doesn't make much sense since it was a basically a total catastrophe.

And sorry, but Nintendo didn't pushed the best they could. They certainly could have sold it much cheaper and increased number of releases by increasing the size of the team.

I actually don't remember anything outstanding they tried to make the sales of WiiU good. It seemed more like they saw early on that the system was going to do bad and just bought their time until they were ready for Switch (which probably couldn't have been released earlier, not only because it also is successor to 3DS, but also that technology for the affordable price wasn't ready yet), similar to Sony that as soon as they saw PSVita couldn't be a success they just let it die (versus PS3 where they done all they could because they thought it was still possible to sell good).

Anyway that isn't much relevant. The point I wanted to explain initially is why PS3 is considered a BIGGER MONEY LOSSER than WiiU. And that had to do with selling 85M consoles with a lot of them being 100-200 loss per sale, versus WiiU more or less selling 15M for break even.

24 million PS3s was sold at loss, the other 63 million was profitable. Sony also did a lot of money with games sold and PS Plus since 2010. Mark Cerny already said that PS4 would never happen if PS3 didn't maked success. WiiU was a total desaster.

Wasn't the WiiU responsible for Nintendo's first financial year loss and management taking a pay cut. both had negative impacts on their respective companies bottom line, the difference was the PS3 had a larger financial impact but the lengthy correction meant the division was in good shape when it came time to deliver the PS4 . The WiiU's financial impact was less but ongoing poor sales meant their ability to gain back ground was also less, while the poor WiiU sales magnified the already considerable pressure you have with a product launch. the state of the overall business meant they too were like Sony in a good place  financially in regard to launching the Switch.



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Mandalore76 on 30 May 2019
DonFerrari said:
Mandalore76 said:

The WiiU was discontinued as a product that wasn't selling well.  But, Nintendo pushed it as best they could (advertising early on could/should have been pushed much harder though to be honest) for just over 4 years until the Switch was ready to launch.  Unlike the Virtual Boy which Nintendo dropped in less than a year.  Or Sega's Dreamcast, which was discontinued after only 1 year 7 months in NA (2 years 4 months including Japan).  The Wii U still has a "Games Page" on Nintendo.com showing release dates updated through April of this year, over 2 years after discontinuation (https://www.nintendo.com/games/game-guide/#filter/:q=&dFR[availability][0]=Available%20now&dFR[platform][0]=Wii%20U&indexName=noa_aem_game_en_us_release_des).  Wii U is still featured all over the "My Nintendo" site with discounts for software and digital content (https://my.nintendo.com/reward_categories).  So, no, they haven't "hidden" or erased the Wii U from memory.

Nintendo's consoles typically change more radically from one system to the next than "every console" by comparison.  But, to put it in terms that you might more readily accept, it was a failure that was a necessary failure to get to where Nintendo wanted to go.  Like the PS3 adding the expensive Bluray drive to pave the way for the PS4, the Wii U gamepad was a necessary step towards the portable application of the Switch.

Putting Virtua Boy in the comparison doesn't make much sense since it was a basically a total catastrophe.

And sorry, but Nintendo didn't pushed the best they could. They certainly could have sold it much cheaper and increased number of releases by increasing the size of the team.

I actually don't remember anything outstanding they tried to make the sales of WiiU good. It seemed more like they saw early on that the system was going to do bad and just bought their time until they were ready for Switch (which probably couldn't have been released earlier, not only because it also is successor to 3DS, but also that technology for the affordable price wasn't ready yet), similar to Sony that as soon as they saw PSVita couldn't be a success they just let it die (versus PS3 where they done all they could because they thought it was still possible to sell good).

Anyway that isn't much relevant. The point I wanted to explain initially is why PS3 is considered a BIGGER MONEY LOSSER than WiiU. And that had to do with selling 85M consoles with a lot of them being 100-200 loss per sale, versus WiiU more or less selling 15M for break even.

I mentioned the Virtual Boy as the only time Nintendo cut and ran from released hardware.  The Wii U didn't receive that kind of treatment.  I acknowledge that Nintendo's advertising of the Wii U was poor.  Something they learned from and immediately rectified with the Switch by paying for a slot for their first Super Bowl ad ever.  When I say Nintendo pushed the Wii U as best they could, I'm speaking strictly regarding software.  Sony starved the Vita of 1st Party titles very early in its life and left it to die as you pointed out.  I think Sony's last 1st party games for Vita released in mid 2014?  Meanwhile, in late 2014 through 2015, Nintendo was still putting out their big guns and unveiling new IP:  Super Smash Bros (November 2014), Mario Party 10 (March 2015), Splatoon (May 2015), Super Mario Maker (September 2015), Yoshi's Wooly World (October 2015)...

I don't dispute your main point about bigger money loser.  I was just countering your statement regarding the Wii U being something Nintendo tried to bury from existence.



DonFerrari on 30 May 2019
paulrage2 said:
DonFerrari said:

Putting Virtua Boy in the comparison doesn't make much sense since it was a basically a total catastrophe.

And sorry, but Nintendo didn't pushed the best they could. They certainly could have sold it much cheaper and increased number of releases by increasing the size of the team.

I actually don't remember anything outstanding they tried to make the sales of WiiU good. It seemed more like they saw early on that the system was going to do bad and just bought their time until they were ready for Switch (which probably couldn't have been released earlier, not only because it also is successor to 3DS, but also that technology for the affordable price wasn't ready yet), similar to Sony that as soon as they saw PSVita couldn't be a success they just let it die (versus PS3 where they done all they could because they thought it was still possible to sell good).

Anyway that isn't much relevant. The point I wanted to explain initially is why PS3 is considered a BIGGER MONEY LOSSER than WiiU. And that had to do with selling 85M consoles with a lot of them being 100-200 loss per sale, versus WiiU more or less selling 15M for break even.

24 million PS3s was sold at loss, the other 63 million was profitable. Sony also did a lot of money with games sold and PS Plus since 2010. Mark Cerny already said that PS4 would never happen if PS3 didn't maked success. WiiU was a total desaster.

Sorry man, but the loss from PS3 are well documented. PS3 lost about 3.5-5 Billion Dollars before starting to make any money. In the end it lost money to Sony.

PS3 was a commercial success, you are confusing both.

Mandalore76 said:
DonFerrari said:

Putting Virtua Boy in the comparison doesn't make much sense since it was a basically a total catastrophe.

And sorry, but Nintendo didn't pushed the best they could. They certainly could have sold it much cheaper and increased number of releases by increasing the size of the team.

I actually don't remember anything outstanding they tried to make the sales of WiiU good. It seemed more like they saw early on that the system was going to do bad and just bought their time until they were ready for Switch (which probably couldn't have been released earlier, not only because it also is successor to 3DS, but also that technology for the affordable price wasn't ready yet), similar to Sony that as soon as they saw PSVita couldn't be a success they just let it die (versus PS3 where they done all they could because they thought it was still possible to sell good).

Anyway that isn't much relevant. The point I wanted to explain initially is why PS3 is considered a BIGGER MONEY LOSSER than WiiU. And that had to do with selling 85M consoles with a lot of them being 100-200 loss per sale, versus WiiU more or less selling 15M for break even.

I mentioned the Virtual Boy as the only time Nintendo cut and ran from released hardware.  The Wii U didn't receive that kind of treatment.  I acknowledge that Nintendo's advertising of the Wii U was poor.  Something they learned from and immediately rectified with the Switch by paying for a slot for their first Super Bowl ad ever.  When I say Nintendo pushed the Wii U as best they could, I'm speaking strictly regarding software.  Sony starved the Vita of 1st Party titles very early in its life and left it to die as you pointed out.  I think Sony's last 1st party games for Vita released in mid 2014?  Meanwhile, in late 2014 through 2015, Nintendo was still putting out their big guns and unveiling new IP:  Super Smash Bros (November 2014), Mario Party 10 (March 2015), Splatoon (May 2015), Super Mario Maker (September 2015), Yoshi's Wooly World (October 2015)...

I don't dispute your main point about bigger money loser.  I was just countering your statement regarding the Wii U being something Nintendo tried to bury from existence.

Well let's say I exaggerated on the burying it.

But on SW support they didn't as best as they could. They even acknowledge they were having problems to develop due to HD. We can say at most that they supported well or better than they needed for the HW sold. But as I said they didn't increased the size or number of studios to make more games. Many people complain about the lack of good 1st party on WiiU because of it. Surely PSVita is worse on this case, because it would be easier for me to list 10 must haves of WiiU (considering or not crossgen) than for PSVita.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

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Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

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Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Eagle367 on 31 May 2019
paulrage2 said:
DonFerrari said:

Putting Virtua Boy in the comparison doesn't make much sense since it was a basically a total catastrophe.

And sorry, but Nintendo didn't pushed the best they could. They certainly could have sold it much cheaper and increased number of releases by increasing the size of the team.

I actually don't remember anything outstanding they tried to make the sales of WiiU good. It seemed more like they saw early on that the system was going to do bad and just bought their time until they were ready for Switch (which probably couldn't have been released earlier, not only because it also is successor to 3DS, but also that technology for the affordable price wasn't ready yet), similar to Sony that as soon as they saw PSVita couldn't be a success they just let it die (versus PS3 where they done all they could because they thought it was still possible to sell good).

Anyway that isn't much relevant. The point I wanted to explain initially is why PS3 is considered a BIGGER MONEY LOSSER than WiiU. And that had to do with selling 85M consoles with a lot of them being 100-200 loss per sale, versus WiiU more or less selling 15M for break even.

24 million PS3s was sold at loss, the other 63 million was profitable. Sony also did a lot of money with games sold and PS Plus since 2010. Mark Cerny already said that PS4 would never happen if PS3 didn't maked success. WiiU was a total desaster.

Come on don't be that oblivious to the TRUTH. We know playstation division's financials and it did not trend above 0 until the PS4 released(this is wrong info. Lafiel corrected me below this very comment) while with the Wii U, ninty  was a little bit less than zero for 2-3 years and actually a bit above zero then on. The PS3 was a financial disaster while the Wii U was a sales disaster.

In the end ninty decided to not take losses to try to sell their console. That is their philosophy unlike Sony's. It's also the answer to the guy saying ninty didn't do enough. Other than lower price, ninty tried marketing and games while keeping losses at a minimum. Ninty definitely didn't sweep the WiiU under the rug and didn't abandon the Wii U like Sony did vita. That's what's called trying to make people forget. In the end the Wii U was a flawed console that will be remembered by the few that bought it as a very decent console that they enjoyed if nothing else. I know I'll be nostalgic for the Wii U. 

Last edited by Eagle367 - on 01 June 2019

Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

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Lafiel on 31 May 2019
Eagle367 said:
paulrage2 said:

24 million PS3s was sold at loss, the other 63 million was profitable. Sony also did a lot of money with games sold and PS Plus since 2010. Mark Cerny already said that PS4 would never happen if PS3 didn't maked success. WiiU was a total desaster.

Come on don't be that oblivious to the TRUTH. We know playstation division's financials and it did not trend above 0 until the PS4 released while with the Wii U, ninty  was a little bit less than zero for 2-3 years and actually a bit above zero then on. The PS3 was a financial disaster while the Wii U was a sales disaster.

seems like you don't know the Playstation divisions financials then, as they became positive midway into the gen - ofcourse not enough to turn around the large early gen losses

edit: FY2011, 2012 and 2013 (ending march 2013, well before PS4 launch) all had the playstation division in the black

Last edited by Lafiel - on 31 May 2019

Eagle367 on 01 June 2019
Lafiel said:
Eagle367 said:

Come on don't be that oblivious to the TRUTH. We know playstation division's financials Andrew it did not trend above 0 until the PS4 released while with the Wii U, ninty  was a little bit less than zero for 2-3 years and actually a bit above zero then on. The PS3 was a financial disaster while the Wii U was a sales disaster.

seems like you don't know the Playstation divisions financials then, as they became positive midway into the gen - ofcourse not enough to turn around the large early gen losses

edit: FY2011, 2012 and 2013 (ending march 2013, well before PS4 launch) all had the playstation division in the black

I was mistaken then. But overall, we can agree that the PS4 was a financial disaster while the Wii U was a sales disaster. In the end both really didn't bog down the success of their successors (pun intended). I'm glad the switch and the PS4 both have so much potential that they can reach 100mil. PS4 is guaranteed at this point and I hope the switch follows through as well.



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Barkley on 01 June 2019
paulrage2 said:

24 million PS3s was sold at loss, the other 63 million was profitable. Sony also did a lot of money with games sold and PS Plus since 2010. Mark Cerny already said that PS4 would never happen if PS3 didn't maked success. WiiU was a total desaster.

The only success PS3 had is developing IP's like Uncharted and TLOU, maintaining a fanbase/userbase and pushing Sony's Bluray Format. Financially it was a disaster. During the PS3 generation PlayStation had an Operating LOSS of $3.59 Billion. They did make small profits towards the end with FY2010 and FY2011 but hardly could be called a lot of money. What is impressive is the profit in FY2018 alone wiped out 80% of the loss from the PS3 generation, and the PS4 generation will end with roughly a $9.5 Billion profit.

PS1 Generation : $3.42 Billion Profit (April 1st 1995 to March 31st 2000)
PS2 Generation : $2.39 Billion Profit (April 1st 2000 to March 31st 2006)
PS3 Generation : $3.59 Billion LOSS (April 1st 2006 to March 31st 2013)
PS4 Generation : $6.83 Billion Profit (April 1st 2013 to March 31st 2019)

Sony Games & Network Services Operating Profit

FY1995 : -$0.08 Billion         (April 1st 1995 to March 31st 1996)
FY1996 : +$0.51 Billion        (April 1st 1996 to March 31st 1997)     
FY1997 : +$1.05 Billion        (April 1st 1997 to March 31st 1998)
FY1998 : +$1.24 Billion        (April 1st 1998 to March 31st 1999)
FY1999 : +$0.70 Billion        (April 1st 1999 to March 31st 2000)
FY2000 : -$0.47 Billion         (April 1st 2000 to March 31st 2001)
FY2001 : +$0.75 Billion        (April 1st 2001 to March 31st 2002)
FY2002 : +$1.02 Billion        (April 1st 2002 to March 31st 2003)
FY2003 : +$0.62 Billion        (April 1st 2003 to March 31st 2004)
FY2004 : +$0.39 Billion        (April 1st 2004 to March 31st 2005)
FY2005 : +$0.08 Billion        (April 1st 2005 to March 31st 2006)
FY2006 : -$2.11 Billion         (April 1st 2006 to March 31st 2007)
FY2007 : -$1.13 Billion         (April 1st 2007 to March 31st 2008)
FY2008 : -$0.53 Billion         (April 1st 2008 to March 31st 2009)
FY2009 : -$0.50 Billion         (April 1st 2009 to March 31st 2010)
FY2010 : +$0.44 Billion        (April 1st 2010 to March 31st 2011)
FY2011 : +$0.27 Billion        (April 1st 2011 to March 31st 2012)
FY2012 : -$0.03 Billion         (April 1st 2012 to March 31st 2013)
FY2013 : -$0.17 Billion         (April 1st 2013 to March 31st 2014)
FY2014 : +$0.44 Billion        (April 1st 2014 to March 31st 2015)
FY2015 : +$0.82 Billion        (April 1st 2015 to March 31st 2016)
FY2016 : +$1.25 Billion        (April 1st 2016 to March 31st 2017)
FY2017 : +$1.62 Billion        (April 1st 2017 to March 31st 2018)
FY2018 : +$2.87 Billion        (April 1st 2018 to March 31st 2019)



Farsala on 01 June 2019
Barkley said:
paulrage2 said:

24 million PS3s was sold at loss, the other 63 million was profitable. Sony also did a lot of money with games sold and PS Plus since 2010. Mark Cerny already said that PS4 would never happen if PS3 didn't maked success. WiiU was a total desaster.

The only success PS3 had is developing IP's like Uncharted and TLOU, maintaining a fanbase/userbase and pushing Sony's Bluray Format. Financially it was a disaster. During the PS3 generation PlayStation had an Operating LOSS of $3.59 Billion. They did make small profits towards the end with FY2010 and FY2011 but hardly could be called a lot of money. What is impressive is the profit in FY2018 alone wiped out 80% of the loss from the PS3 generation, and the PS4 generation will end with roughly a $9.5 Billion profit.

PS1 Generation : $3.42 Billion Profit (April 1st 1995 to March 31st 2000)
PS2 Generation : $2.39 Billion Profit (April 1st 2000 to March 31st 2006)
PS3 Generation : $3.59 Billion LOSS (April 1st 2006 to March 31st 2013)
PS4 Generation : $6.83 Billion Profit (April 1st 2013 to March 31st 2019)

Sony Games & Network Services Operating Profit

FY1995 : -$0.08 Billion         (April 1st 1995 to March 31st 1996)
FY1996 : +$0.51 Billion        (April 1st 1996 to March 31st 1997)     
FY1997 : +$1.05 Billion        (April 1st 1997 to March 31st 1998)
FY1998 : +$1.24 Billion        (April 1st 1998 to March 31st 1999)
FY1999 : +$0.70 Billion        (April 1st 1999 to March 31st 2000)
FY2000 : -$0.47 Billion         (April 1st 2000 to March 31st 2001)
FY2001 : +$0.75 Billion        (April 1st 2001 to March 31st 2002)
FY2002 : +$1.02 Billion        (April 1st 2002 to March 31st 2003)
FY2003 : +$0.62 Billion        (April 1st 2003 to March 31st 2004)
FY2004 : +$0.39 Billion        (April 1st 2004 to March 31st 2005)
FY2005 : +$0.08 Billion        (April 1st 2005 to March 31st 2006)
FY2006 : -$2.11 Billion         (April 1st 2006 to March 31st 2007)
FY2007 : -$1.13 Billion         (April 1st 2007 to March 31st 2008)
FY2008 : -$0.53 Billion         (April 1st 2008 to March 31st 2009)
FY2009 : -$0.50 Billion         (April 1st 2009 to March 31st 2010)
FY2010 : +$0.44 Billion        (April 1st 2010 to March 31st 2011)
FY2011 : +$0.27 Billion        (April 1st 2011 to March 31st 2012)
FY2012 : -$0.03 Billion         (April 1st 2012 to March 31st 2013)
FY2013 : -$0.17 Billion         (April 1st 2013 to March 31st 2014)
FY2014 : +$0.44 Billion        (April 1st 2014 to March 31st 2015)
FY2015 : +$0.82 Billion        (April 1st 2015 to March 31st 2016)
FY2016 : +$1.25 Billion        (April 1st 2016 to March 31st 2017)
FY2017 : +$1.62 Billion        (April 1st 2017 to March 31st 2018)
FY2018 : +$2.87 Billion        (April 1st 2018 to March 31st 2019)

While this is true every new generation, the end of the PS3 generation had much less profit in the most profitable years due to significant R&D to the Vita in 2011 and PS4 in 2013.

The PS1 gen only had to deal with the PS2 in FY00/01m and as clearly shown in the graph it appears that the PS2 made less profit than the PS1. But it also had significant R&D for 2 consoles in the PSP at 2004 and PS3 in 2006.

So while these numbers are quite factual, it doesn't mean that all losses can be directly attributed to a certain console.



Lafiel on 01 June 2019
Eagle367 said:

I was mistaken then. But overall, we can agree that the PS4 was a financial disaster while the Wii U was a sales disaster. In the end both really didn't bog down the success of their successors (pun intended). I'm glad the switch and the PS4 both have so much potential that they can reach 100mil. PS4 is guaranteed at this point and I hope the switch follows through as well.

Yea, while Sony regained goodwill/trust through late gen support, Nintendo managed to shake off the WiiU's misfortune with a very compelling concept and ofcourse blockbuster games right out of the gate. The Switch definitely has the 100m potential, but reaching that number will in my opinion heavily depend on how long it will be the primary Nintendo system on the market - if there is a clear successor ("gens" might become pretty hazy in the next decade with streaming/forward compatibility etc) after 5 years it might just miss out.