By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Sports Discussion - 2019 NBA Postseason: The Toronto Raptors are NBA Champions!

Dark_Lord_2008 said:
Jordan the G.O.A.T had to wait until 28 to win his first NBA championship because he played on losing teams and had to wait for his team to have decent players.
Jordan is the G.O.A.T and everyone else is trying to catch up to his 10 NBA scoring titles, 6 Finals MVPs and 5 MVPs and 6 NBA championships.
You must win more than 10 NBA scoring titles and win more than 6 NBA Finals MVPs and more than 5 MVPs to be G.O.A.T. Jordan played in a tough era and his scoring averages would be a lot more if he played in today's soft basketball era. He frequently got smashed and no foul calls. Get up and play on you idiot is what the other players, crowd and the referee. None of today's cheap foul calls for nothing way back in Jordan's days.

What makes most of those scoring titles so impressive is he had all defensive 1st team too. Hes also the only player to win scoring title and dpoy in the same season which will never happen again. Lebron padding stats and stopped playing defense



Around the Network
Dark_Lord_2008 said:
Jordan the G.O.A.T had to wait until 28 to win his first NBA championship because he played on losing teams and had to wait for his team to have decent players.
Jordan is the G.O.A.T and everyone else is trying to catch up to his 10 NBA scoring titles, 6 Finals MVPs and 5 MVPs and 6 NBA championships.
You must win more than 10 NBA scoring titles and win more than 6 NBA Finals MVPs and more than 5 MVPs to be G.O.A.T. Jordan played in a tough era and his scoring averages would be a lot more if he played in today's soft basketball era. He frequently got smashed and no foul calls. Get up and play on you idiot is what the other players, crowd and the referee. None of today's cheap foul calls for nothing way back in Jordan's days.

All this G.O.A.T talk in basketball or any other team sport is silly.  You can only be a G.O.A.T in individual sports.  In team sports nobody can play all the positions available.  Also as far as stats goes nobody put up better numbers then Wilt in the NBA nobody is going to top his 100 point game nobody is going to top his minutes played in a single season nobody is going to top his single season and single game rebounds record nobody is going to top his career rebound numbers nobody is going to top his single season scoring average.



Chris Hu said:
Dark_Lord_2008 said:
Jordan the G.O.A.T had to wait until 28 to win his first NBA championship because he played on losing teams and had to wait for his team to have decent players.
Jordan is the G.O.A.T and everyone else is trying to catch up to his 10 NBA scoring titles, 6 Finals MVPs and 5 MVPs and 6 NBA championships.
You must win more than 10 NBA scoring titles and win more than 6 NBA Finals MVPs and more than 5 MVPs to be G.O.A.T. Jordan played in a tough era and his scoring averages would be a lot more if he played in today's soft basketball era. He frequently got smashed and no foul calls. Get up and play on you idiot is what the other players, crowd and the referee. None of today's cheap foul calls for nothing way back in Jordan's days.

All this G.O.A.T talk in basketball or any other team sport is silly.  You can only be a G.O.A.T in individual sports.  In team sports nobody can play all the positions available.  Also as far as stats goes nobody put up better numbers then Wilt in the NBA nobody is going to top his 100 point game nobody is going to top his minutes played in a single season nobody is going to top his single season and single game rebounds record nobody is going to top his career rebound numbers nobody is going to top his single season scoring average.

And no one is touching most of his accuracy records either.

DeAndre Jordan got close to his single season FG%, but there are still his records for consecutive field goal attempts without a recorded miss (he has the #1 and #2 spots with 35 and 32 respectively), most field goal attempts in a game, no misses (he holds the top three spots with 18 of 18, 16 of 16, and 15 of 15).  

And his versatility as a center was absurd.  He had 53 triple doubles in just two seasons, more than double what any other center has had in their career.

But rattling off awards or rattling off stats or rattling of championships is ground level discussion on this topic.  And saying someone needs to be a scoring machine to be the GOAT is basement level.  



Younger people from this generation ignore history. Let's educate young millennial on basic facts. Michael Jordan is the clear G.O.A.T. of basketball. The Nike ads on TV clearly highlight Jordan as being the G.O.A.T. Past and present players and expert sports commentators and coaches have agreed Jordan is the G.O.A.T. It is like trying to doubt Usain Bolt is not the greatest sprinter of all time. Every sport has its sport has its G.O.A.T. regardless of team sport or individual sport. Jordan is to basketball as Tiger Woods is to golf as Usain Bolt is to sprinting 100m/200m. Michael Jordan is the G.O.A.T of basketball and it is pointless trying to argue against it because various experts past and present agree that Jordan is G.O.A.T.



Dark_Lord_2008 said:

Younger people from this generation ignore history. Let's educate young millennial on basic facts. Michael Jordan is the clear G.O.A.T. of basketball. The Nike ads on TV clearly highlight Jordan as being the G.O.A.T. Past and present players and expert sports commentators and coaches have agreed Jordan is the G.O.A.T. It is like trying to doubt Usain Bolt is not the greatest sprinter of all time. Every sport has its sport has its G.O.A.T. regardless of team sport or individual sport. Jordan is to basketball as Tiger Woods is to golf as Usain Bolt is to sprinting 100m/200m. Michael Jordan is the G.O.A.T of basketball and it is pointless trying to argue against it because various experts past and present agree that Jordan is G.O.A.T.

Except Bolt and Woods play in sports where their excellence is very easily quantified.  Jordan did not because A) it is a team sport and B) it involves direct competition between individuas in which one can impede another.  And you can take your "younger generation" bs and stick it where the sun don't shine.  I saw Jordan as a kid and have seen him in film numerous times.  I have no issue with Jordan being in the discussion or being the front runner in it.  Acting like there is no discussion is the uninformed behavior that irks me.

And it is not pointless to discuss, especially when some of these experts say the most bizarre crap you'll ever hear.



Around the Network

And to be clear, I'm not saying Jordan isn't the GOAT. Rather that there's a LOT of nuances and complexities to consider. For me, four players are in the discussion.

Michael Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Lebron James

That's not necessarily the order and I don't keep them in a definitive order, but I generally have Wilt and Jordan on top and Kareem and Lebron beneath them. And Wilt and Jordan are neck and neck. The biggest point in Wilt's favor imho is that while the turbulence surrounding him in his career no doubt hurt his ring count, it also facilitated the demonstration of incredible versatility. The fact he could go from being a monstrous scorer as the fulcrum of his team's offense to being a triple double machine to being essentially a much more efficient Bill Russell is incredible. No other great player has been asked to completely transform themselves like that. And frankly, if a coach tried that today they would probably be out of the league within a year. But in the end, it shows he had many sides to him beyond just points and rebounds.



NightlyPoe said:
Dark_Lord_2008 said:

Younger people from this generation ignore history. Let's educate young millennial on basic facts. Michael Jordan is the clear G.O.A.T. of basketball. The Nike ads on TV clearly highlight Jordan as being the G.O.A.T. Past and present players and expert sports commentators and coaches have agreed Jordan is the G.O.A.T. It is like trying to doubt Usain Bolt is not the greatest sprinter of all time. Every sport has its sport has its G.O.A.T. regardless of team sport or individual sport. Jordan is to basketball as Tiger Woods is to golf as Usain Bolt is to sprinting 100m/200m. Michael Jordan is the G.O.A.T of basketball and it is pointless trying to argue against it because various experts past and present agree that Jordan is G.O.A.T.

Nike ads are not definitive.  They do highlight why Jordan's coronation of GOAT is so well protected.  Corporate America was heavily invested in giving him a halo.  It's long forgotten that the Sports Illustrated for his first championship had "Finally!" on the cover.  Or that coaches figured out how to limit him before Pippen and Jackson came along.  Or that the Bulls were still championship contenders, winning only two fewer games in the regular season with Pete Myers (trivia question alert) as the starting SG in the place of a retired Jordan.  Or that Jordan retired early twice because his legendary mental drive really made him a mental glass cannon.

And, for the record, I was around to watch Jordan's career.

I'm not attacking Jordan.  I'm merely pointing out that his faults were wallpapered over.  Meanwhile, guys like Wilt or Lebron have had their faults exaggerated.  In Lebron's case largely as a means for protecting Jordan's legacy.  Partially just because that's just the age we live in.  Tearing down giants is a lot more prevalent in the age of social media than it was in the days of corporate engineering of reputations.

Jordan haters like to use the 94 season but they followed the 94 season they would know that the 94 bulls team were improved with kerr, kukoc and longley, highly motivated and had plenty of luck. Why dont they point out that without jordan they went from being the best to only making the semifinals. Jordan legacy dont need no protection. His achievement speaks for itself. 6 finals mvp, 5 mvps, 10 scoring titles, 9 all defensive 1st team, defensive player of the year. Only player to win scoring title and dpoy in the same season because he was a 2 way player unlike lebron who rests on defense to save energy for stat padding 



NightlyPoe said:
Pinkie_pie said:

Jordan haters like to use the 94 season but they followed the 94 season they would know that the 94 bulls team were improved with kerr, kukoc and longley, highly motivated and had plenty of luck. Why dont they point out that without jordan they went from being the best to only making the semifinals. Jordan legacy dont need no protection. His achievement speaks for itself. 6 finals mvp, 5 mvps, 10 scoring titles, 9 all defensive 1st team, defensive player of the year. Only player to win scoring title and dpoy in the same season because he was a 2 way player unlike lebron who rests on defense to save energy for stat padding 

I'm not a Jordan hater.  I'm merely pointing out that without Jordan, the Bulls were still an excellent well-coached team.  It wasn't just Jordan willing his team to championships.

And people can point to stat lines for other players.

-Wilt has all those unbreakable records and was the most dominant player we've ever seen.  It would be fair to classify him as both a better offensive and defensive weapon than Jordan.  He was unmatched as a physical specimen proven by his once averaging more minutes per game than there were minutes in a game.  He was still being offered NBA contracts in his 50s.
-Bill Russell's probably the best defender the league has ever seen, has 11 rings, as many MVPs as Jordan (winning several while Wilt was setting those unbreakable records), and would hold the record for most Finals MVPs if the award existed for most of his career (instead the award is just named after him).
-Kareem has more MVPs, just as many championships, the all-time scoring record, was probably the greatest college player ever, had the second longest prime we've ever seen, and turned around a bad teams and made them into champions within two years of his arrival.
-Lebron's carried multiple outright bad teams all the way to the Finals and has had the longest prime that we've ever seen.  He'll likely end his career with the scoring record and 3rd all-time in assists.
-Curry revolutionized the game, setting shooting efficiency records that were unimaginable a few years ago and has had his own dynasty.
-Bird played at a level where no one even knew how to handle him and, like Kareem, walked into the league and took a bad team to a championship within two years of arriving.
-Magic won in his first year and made it to the Finals in 9 of his 12 years and is the best passer the NBA has ever seen and could have been an all-time great from any position on the floor.

You can't just give a list and pretend that's the end of the conversation.  All these guys are legends.

Its a combination of everything. Wilt playoff avg isnt comparable to jordan and of course championships. Bill stats isnt comparable to jordans and he played with more fellow hall of famers than any other superstar at the time(thats why wilt will always be ranked ahead of bill even though bill has more championships. Kareem has 1 more mvp and huge career stats because he played for 20 years to get those. He also played with 2 players that are top 20 ever. Jordan with pippen who i wouldnt rank in the top 50. Lebron carried 1 bad team to the finals and that was last year when he had no kyrie. The east has been weak thats why we see kawhi carried a toronto team to the finals in his 1st year in the east. Lebron fans like to argue that jordan could never taken the Cleveland team to the finals but we have no idea what jordan could have done with that team. Lebron had to join wade and bosh to be great. Their accomplishments arent comparable. Jordan has more mvps, finals mvp, defensive 1st team, dpoy all in less years. As for magic, bird and curry it shouldnt even be a debate, especially curry.



Pinkie_pie said:
NightlyPoe said:

I'm not a Jordan hater.  I'm merely pointing out that without Jordan, the Bulls were still an excellent well-coached team.  It wasn't just Jordan willing his team to championships.

And people can point to stat lines for other players.

-Wilt has all those unbreakable records and was the most dominant player we've ever seen.  It would be fair to classify him as both a better offensive and defensive weapon than Jordan.  He was unmatched as a physical specimen proven by his once averaging more minutes per game than there were minutes in a game.  He was still being offered NBA contracts in his 50s.
-Bill Russell's probably the best defender the league has ever seen, has 11 rings, as many MVPs as Jordan (winning several while Wilt was setting those unbreakable records), and would hold the record for most Finals MVPs if the award existed for most of his career (instead the award is just named after him).
-Kareem has more MVPs, just as many championships, the all-time scoring record, was probably the greatest college player ever, had the second longest prime we've ever seen, and turned around a bad teams and made them into champions within two years of his arrival.
-Lebron's carried multiple outright bad teams all the way to the Finals and has had the longest prime that we've ever seen.  He'll likely end his career with the scoring record and 3rd all-time in assists.
-Curry revolutionized the game, setting shooting efficiency records that were unimaginable a few years ago and has had his own dynasty.
-Bird played at a level where no one even knew how to handle him and, like Kareem, walked into the league and took a bad team to a championship within two years of arriving.
-Magic won in his first year and made it to the Finals in 9 of his 12 years and is the best passer the NBA has ever seen and could have been an all-time great from any position on the floor.

You can't just give a list and pretend that's the end of the conversation.  All these guys are legends.

Its a combination of everything. Wilt playoff avg isnt comparable to jordan and of course championships. Bill stats isnt comparable to jordans and he played with more fellow hall of famers than any other superstar at the time(thats why wilt will always be ranked ahead of bill even though bill has more championships. Kareem has 1 more mvp and huge career stats because he played for 20 years to get those. He also played with 2 players that are top 20 ever. Jordan with pippen who i wouldnt rank in the top 50. Lebron carried 1 bad team to the finals and that was last year when he had no kyrie. The east has been weak thats why we see kawhi carried a toronto team to the finals in his 1st year in the east. Lebron fans like to argue that jordan could never taken the Cleveland team to the finals but we have no idea what jordan could have done with that team. Lebron had to join wade and bosh to be great. Their accomplishments arent comparable. Jordan has more mvps, finals mvp, defensive 1st team, dpoy all in less years. As for magic, bird and curry it shouldnt even be a debate, especially curry.

The team Lebron carried to the finals in his first stint with the cavs was very similar to the one he left to play in Miami.  And that team was spectacularly bad after he left.  Jordan had situations like that.  He got bounced out of the finals early multiple times.  Even after Pippin showed up, he didn't win for couple seasons.  

Wilt was not tasked with primarily scoring during the second half of his career and wasn't tasked with being the fulcrum of his team's offense after the Warriors traded him.   The years he was given that task - as Jordan had his whole career - he averaged 34.6 ppg in the playoffs.  All his scoring years together, 32.8.  Radically different coaches with radically different visions result in wildly varied stats.  

And Wilt played against a stupidly stacked Celtics team the vast majority of his career.  And Chamberlain's list of good coaches totals at 3 who coached him for a combined 6 seasons scattered over his career, all of whom wanted completelydifferent styles of play.  Jordan had Jackson for 7 seasons, 8 if you count his comback season.  All in a row, with one system, one plan, one roll for him.  You can't just sandblast all nuance off the debate.  There's variables,  tons of them.  

Oh and the argument that Lebron needed great players to win is a non argument.  And the fact he had to leave his original team to get them is a non argument.  Imagine if Jordan's organization had been jackasses and he never got Pippen and Jackson left.  Where would he be?  Another in the long list of players who never had the necessary pieces to win, like Elgin Baylor.  Or he would have one or two, like many others - see Bob Pettit, Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West.  Because it's a team sport that demands good supporting casts and good coaches. 

Oh and not all awards were available back in the day.  Chamberlain has 2 All Defensive Teams in his twilight years because that's when the award was around to be had.  Otherwise he would have a load of first and second teams.



Reggie Miller over Larry Bird and Steph Curry. I remember back in the day. People would say "Miller" every time someone shoots a 3-pointer.
Miller was the go to guy for 3-point shot, he was the best 3-point shooter of his era.. Miller usually averaged 90% from free throw line.