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Nuvendil on 10 June 2019
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Pinkie_pie said:
NightlyPoe said:

I'm not a Jordan hater.  I'm merely pointing out that without Jordan, the Bulls were still an excellent well-coached team.  It wasn't just Jordan willing his team to championships.

And people can point to stat lines for other players.

-Wilt has all those unbreakable records and was the most dominant player we've ever seen.  It would be fair to classify him as both a better offensive and defensive weapon than Jordan.  He was unmatched as a physical specimen proven by his once averaging more minutes per game than there were minutes in a game.  He was still being offered NBA contracts in his 50s.
-Bill Russell's probably the best defender the league has ever seen, has 11 rings, as many MVPs as Jordan (winning several while Wilt was setting those unbreakable records), and would hold the record for most Finals MVPs if the award existed for most of his career (instead the award is just named after him).
-Kareem has more MVPs, just as many championships, the all-time scoring record, was probably the greatest college player ever, had the second longest prime we've ever seen, and turned around a bad teams and made them into champions within two years of his arrival.
-Lebron's carried multiple outright bad teams all the way to the Finals and has had the longest prime that we've ever seen.  He'll likely end his career with the scoring record and 3rd all-time in assists.
-Curry revolutionized the game, setting shooting efficiency records that were unimaginable a few years ago and has had his own dynasty.
-Bird played at a level where no one even knew how to handle him and, like Kareem, walked into the league and took a bad team to a championship within two years of arriving.
-Magic won in his first year and made it to the Finals in 9 of his 12 years and is the best passer the NBA has ever seen and could have been an all-time great from any position on the floor.

You can't just give a list and pretend that's the end of the conversation.  All these guys are legends.

Its a combination of everything. Wilt playoff avg isnt comparable to jordan and of course championships. Bill stats isnt comparable to jordans and he played with more fellow hall of famers than any other superstar at the time(thats why wilt will always be ranked ahead of bill even though bill has more championships. Kareem has 1 more mvp and huge career stats because he played for 20 years to get those. He also played with 2 players that are top 20 ever. Jordan with pippen who i wouldnt rank in the top 50. Lebron carried 1 bad team to the finals and that was last year when he had no kyrie. The east has been weak thats why we see kawhi carried a toronto team to the finals in his 1st year in the east. Lebron fans like to argue that jordan could never taken the Cleveland team to the finals but we have no idea what jordan could have done with that team. Lebron had to join wade and bosh to be great. Their accomplishments arent comparable. Jordan has more mvps, finals mvp, defensive 1st team, dpoy all in less years. As for magic, bird and curry it shouldnt even be a debate, especially curry.

The team Lebron carried to the finals in his first stint with the cavs was very similar to the one he left to play in Miami.  And that team was spectacularly bad after he left.  Jordan had situations like that.  He got bounced out of the finals early multiple times.  Even after Pippin showed up, he didn't win for couple seasons.  

Wilt was not tasked with primarily scoring during the second half of his career and wasn't tasked with being the fulcrum of his team's offense after the Warriors traded him.   The years he was given that task - as Jordan had his whole career - he averaged 34.6 ppg in the playoffs.  All his scoring years together, 32.8.  Radically different coaches with radically different visions result in wildly varied stats.  

And Wilt played against a stupidly stacked Celtics team the vast majority of his career.  And Chamberlain's list of good coaches totals at 3 who coached him for a combined 6 seasons scattered over his career, all of whom wanted completelydifferent styles of play.  Jordan had Jackson for 7 seasons, 8 if you count his comback season.  All in a row, with one system, one plan, one roll for him.  You can't just sandblast all nuance off the debate.  There's variables,  tons of them.  

Oh and the argument that Lebron needed great players to win is a non argument.  And the fact he had to leave his original team to get them is a non argument.  Imagine if Jordan's organization had been jackasses and he never got Pippen and Jackson left.  Where would he be?  Another in the long list of players who never had the necessary pieces to win, like Elgin Baylor.  Or he would have one or two, like many others - see Bob Pettit, Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West.  Because it's a team sport that demands good supporting casts and good coaches. 

Oh and not all awards were available back in the day.  Chamberlain has 2 All Defensive Teams in his twilight years because that's when the award was around to be had.  Otherwise he would have a load of first and second teams.