First off, I'm going to point out that'll I'll be ignoring everyone else's replies to me, in this forum, recent and beyond, until this is resolved between us. There's already others suggesting I'm someone else who's apparently banned and look to be trying to use that to get me banned for it. Clearly there's a much bigger problem here for others beyond what it is I've said when they're going to those kind of lengths.
Hiku said:
ConservagameR said:
Guess it's time for me to complain as well then. I don't like to, but apparently I need to. Here's my original post (directly below) and the reply that's led to all of this. I mention what Biden said as to restricting guns and how that explains the Republican view of abortion and the Supreme Court ruling. I mention both sides constantly trying to undo each others past and how that's not getting anybody anywhere, so what's the point? The reply to me is about: Bipartisan support - Which would be direct and acceptable. Australia - What does this have anything to do with the US? Isn't this a strawman then? Is that a problem that should've been moderated? Gun lobbies working with politicians - The Biden gun restriction was explaining the abortion ruling. This isn't a strawman? Did it require moderation? |
But this is not addressing what me and others are talking about. Here's what you said: ConservagameR said:
My point regarding Japan is that even if you have extremely strict gun laws, people are going to find a way to get guns, or make guns, or use another weapon to kill people. & ConservagameR said:
The strict laws aren't strict enough. Ban all guns. It's the answer. The only answer, to the end of gun violence. Period. The question is why are you making some point about this if no one ever claimed that banning guns would prevent any gun violence from ever occurring again?
That's like me jumping into one conversation about a car accident, and sarcastically saying "Oh look, traffic lights, speed limits, seatbelts and airbags suuuure saved the day, didn't they? But yeah, let's add more safety measures..." Or "My point regarding traffic lights, seatbelts and airbags is that even if you have extremely strict safety measures, there will still be fatal accidents." Yeah, obviously. Because no one ever claimed or thought otherwise. So why would I ever say that? That's what people here asked you to explain about your comments.
I want you to explain either who claimed that there would never ever be another instance of gun violence if guns are illegal, or why you are acting as if you are dunking on an argument that no one ever made. And I want you to explain it in one concise paragraph.
Do not copy and paste a former quote of yours. Don't bring up another one of your points. Don't ask any questions.
Just give a clear answer. Consider this a test to see if you can behave. People shouldn't have to ask you this many times to get an answer. But this will be the last time I ask you. Because if you can't even do that, then you'll prove the concerns people have raised about your posting style. |
Then why did you ask me this below initially? These are about this topic, not the Abe topic.
"Gun restriction laws are meant to mitigate avoidable instances of gun violence.
So as people here pointed out, your argument was akin to having crime be legalized, since banning crime won't prevent them from ever happening again."
"But instead of addressing how people criticized your logic here, you are instead asking them new questions.
That can be seen as a disingenuous way to avoid the subject that you yourself brought up. And we've been getting a number of complaints about things like this in this thread over the past few days."
I thought we weren't supposed to be strawmaning or making claims in replies that aren't extremely direct to what's being talked about? If you were talking about two different things, then I responded to both, so what's the problem?
I can only assume what I said about Abe didn't suffice, so I'll point out that I've already said in that other thread, that I was being sarcastic, which makes that point moot. There's nothing to explain about it if I didn't mean it as such.
A few others in that thread said they were for a full gun ban too, some quoting me. So obviously the point actually had merit to some others, even though I was being sarcastic myself.
Hiku said:
ConservagameR said:
Australia - What does this have anything to do with the US? Isn't this a strawman then? Is that a problem that should've been moderated? |
Mentioning and comparing gun regulation from other countries is not a strawman. It's adding context to the discussion that may not have been considered, etc.
A strawman version of that would look something like "Stricter gun laws could never reduce the amount of mass shootings from 10 in 10 years, to 0 for 15 years straight, right guys? That's never happened anywhere, because its just not humanly possible."
Pretending that you or someone made this claim, and that they have now disproven that claim. Unless of course you actually made the claim that stricter gun regulations can't significantly reduce gun violence and mass shootings. In which case it's no longer a strawman, but calling you out on something. As for why Australia is brought up, it's because they have tried more strict gun regulations across the entire country, while USA never has in a comparable way. Pointing out that they're not the same country is fair, but the fact remains that USA never tried. You'll have tighter gun control in some areas in the US, but that means little when they are lax in neighboring areas and weapons come in from there. |
It's either a strawman, or it's just flat out a completely baseless comment. It's one or the other.
If it's a strawman, then it's a problem as per this conversation and should've been dealt with earlier.
If it's flat out a completely baseless comment, then it's also a problem as per the Abe thread comments.
Or do we not have to be very direct with our replied points? Since that's part of why I'm being questioned, for not being direct enough.
Again, I don't really care that they brought up Australia, but is we're not all going to be treated equally when it comes to being less direct to a degree, then I guess we can all just keep complaining, including myself, and I'd much rather not.
Hiku said:
ConservagameR said:
I'm answering and asking other questions. Those questions have a point. Which is fairly obvious since some understand I'm proving their prior point wrong with that question, so they ignore it. Again, is ignoring questions in reply's, or entre reply's that seem illegitimate acceptable? What if the member continues the conversation seemingly without issue, only to have others jump in and complain? |
I see several posts where you don't answer people. When Sundin asked "So, if no intervention can end violence, why have any anti-violence interventions? Why have police and prisons? We have those now and we still have crime. Should we just get rid of them?", you just glossed over that part.
And I hope you actually address what I'm asking in the first section of my post here. But it comes down to intent. It can be fine to ignore comments or questions. But if it appears that it is done to avoid explaining your position, or to avoid admitting you made a mistake, etc, especially when you're repeatedly asked to explain something you yourself said, then it can be considered a form of trolling, or wasting people's time to try to save face, etc. |
I replied talking about defunding the police. Basically an analogy to their analogy. How is that ignoring them?
We're not talking about police and prisons anyway, so it's off topic and touching on a strawman. Should I have ignored them?
There are plenty of times when I've conversed with others and they don't reply to every single last remark. Sometimes it's because it's not fully necessary to make their points and sometimes it's because they aren't perfect and missed a few things.
I'm sure some of them are ignored on purpose, for some purpose, and as you've stated, that's acceptable in certain cases. It's odd who tends to be expected to respond to everything though and who get's to pass when they feel like it. It sure doesn't seem like equal treatment.
Hiku said:
Right here I don't think you're doing this to avoid addressing something, because there was nothing in particular in my quote that you needed to elaborate on. But it's making things a bit contrived by branching into something I've never even heard anyone talk about in my life. Gun utopia?
It just sounds like a term invented to make gun control sound like an impossible dream. But the ideal situation depends on the circumstances. Japan is about as good as you can reasonably imagine a country of that size, and it's not perfect. |
Utopia isn't just all encompassing perfection, it's perfection as of a certain state or place, so anything, at any time, at any level, could be considered utopia.
Yes, and American circumstances aren't totally, yet considerably different than Japanese or Australian circumstances. So why anything would definitely work, near as well or just as well, if not better, is just a guess at best. Though that doesn't seem to be a problem even though there's no proof they're automatically interchangeable between nations. Proof tends to be a big deal in here, especially when someone feels cornered.
Hiku said:
I don't see how this is a rebuttal to what I said though? How does someone thinking that an outcome is likely or guaranteed change that it sounds like the logic you used means you also think crime should be legal, since criminalizing it doesn't stop all crime?
I also don't know what 'law control' is. Neither does Google. |
It's based on what was said to Sundin about their poor analogy and how I compared that to defunding the police, or further controlling the law. If other circumstances were (highly) thought to bring a certain outcome, and didn't, or worse, why should this unproven idea be automatically accepted?
Hiku said:
ConservagameR said:
They heavily imply it's about mitigation as you say, but mitigation, step by step, until utopia is reached. Not singlehandedly, but bit by bit over time. Others have also offered this point. That it's not just mitigation, but it's bit by bit until the overall goal is complete eventually. In terms of guns, that would then mean banning guns entirely (just later instead of sooner, because of push back from gun owners and lobbies). |
There's never a point where it's anything but mitigation, because there's no way to completely prevent gun violence from ever occurring. Though semantics aside, I don't believe that this is an actual concern because I don't think there's support for a complete gun ban. And even if there was, the democrats can barely even pass anything through the senate when they have a majority. The second amendment isn't going anywhere. In spite of how many times we've heard Republicans scream "They're coming for your guns" every election, it never happened. Now they're struggling to raise the minimum age to purchase an assault rifle from 18 to 21. A weapon no civilian needs. |
That's your stance and that's fine, but when you're asking about who ever said this or that, or who actually believes these things, some obviously do, and they apparently don't think I should be able to voice my opinion if they're complaining about me.
Hiku said:
ConservagameR said:
Like when the FBI keep saying they knew or were heavily onto the subject, but still didn't do squat, like the police in Uvalde who just stood around and did nothing? The big question is why are so many law enforcement agencies sitting around and doing so little? Part of it is law, which can be changed by the departments and politicians, but it's also about the culture and it's people. Some want less or little (to no) law enforcement, and others want more. Some want (next to) perfect (utopian) law enforcement, while others will just put up with some imperfection. If the system as it exists is clearly flawed, why is nobody focusing on truly fixing it, instead of adding more rules and regulations to the problem? Less guns won't make the lawmen do the right thing, just like how less lawmen and their tools didn't either. |
The many problems with law enforcement is a whole other can of worms. You can point the finger at a lot of factors. Such as cops lack of training. Or the recruitment process. (In some cases they won't accept people with 'too high IQ'. Court OKs Barring High IQs for Cops - ABC News (go.com) Or how US cops have been assigned many roles that would normally be handled by entirely different professions in other countries. (This is what defund the police is about btw. That they shouldn't be budgeted to handle jobs that they're not qualified for. It's not about making them unable to carry out their policework.) But regarding fixing the system, when it comes to politicians at least, if you have any suggestions, feel free to share them. One that gained some traction is politicians who refuse to accept corporate bribes. And their aim is to make it illegal. Because if politicians get 'donations' from lobbyists, then you can't trust them to make decisions that involve those companies. But as far as I know, this is only a thing among progressives. And when the most prominent one (Bernie Sanders) tried to run for president in 2020, all the other Democratic candidates teamed up together to take him out of the primary. |
Bribes and lobbying aren't acceptable as per most citizens, both sides, but it's so entrenched at this point that most don't bother doing anything about it, especially when someone like Sanders get's cheated out of a Presidential run. The last questionable idea was to send a bull into a china shop, and look how that worked out. It led to an old white guy from the anti old white guy party, who was already losing his marbles prior to his election. What would actually work, who knows, but any idea's would be for a separate conversation.
Hiku said:
ConservagameR said:
If you have guns to compare to knives. When most if not all guns are gone, then what becomes the new top weapon on the chart to compare lesser weapons to? Then those new top weapons have to go right? Can people not get by with just basic knives? Sure, the butchers and cooks can have them, like the rich and elite will have their armed security still, but everyone else can just make do with BB guns and butter knives basically, right? It's all part of the, what is enough question? In which the answer is it's never enough until we've reached utopia, apparently. The reality is utopia can never be reached because everyone has their own version, and while some people's version is everyone living in harmony, others version is to be left alone for the most part. Those two visions can never be united, and will come into greater conflict the more they're pushed or forced to. Which is why compromise is needed, and that comes in many forms from both parties, no matter the situation. Yet it seems like one side had been much more compromising than the other for some time, at least until recently, when they finally decided enough was enough, and now they look to want to level the playing field by making up for others lack of past compromises. If enough compromise won't be given by others, then what else do you do if you also refuse to compromise enough going forward due to the past? While not a great way of doing things, by both sides, it seems like the idea is to attempt a covid injection influential type campaign, by injecting hated leadership and taking away past gains by others to push them to do the right thing and better compromise. Problem is both sides as to those situations, tended to disagree and have fought, and are still fighting against them, instead of giving in and compromising. |
Tbh, it's hard to see any scenario where guns are no longer the top weapon of concern. And countries that have been living in a world where guns have been banned for decades still have knives. If they decide to put them behind a locked glass casing that a store clerk needs to open for you, I wouldn't be losing any sleep over that. |
Many couldn't really see a scenario where DJT ended up President, even some Republicans. Some Republicans couldn't believe Biden would win, especially with 80+ million votes at that. I'm sure in places like the UK, not too recent, but not all that long ago either, having knife violence be such a problem that restrictions on knives would be a thing, likely didn't seem possible to the point where nobody even thought about it back then.
Plenty of things are hard to fathom until they become reality.