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Torillian on 12 July 2022
KLAMarine said:
EpicRandy said:

Where was the "left" mentioned in the video, was the "left" associated in anyway with the first decision in some other source or is it just you assuming?

This is the first time I hear about this story and there's not much info.

The arrest may still be warranted if for instance the aggressor was stabbed an outrageous amount of time suggesting the defendant was at some point no more acting in self defense. Same if the aggressor attempted to flee at some point and still got stabbed. 

District Attorney Alvin Bragg's political affiliation is with the Democratic party.

Alvin Bragg Jr. - Ballotpedia

Alvin Bragg - Wikipedia

So's the mayor from the clip who said it was fucked up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Adams

It's New York City....



...

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SanAndreasX on 12 July 2022
KLAMarine said:
EpicRandy said:

Where was the "left" mentioned in the video, was the "left" associated in anyway with the first decision in some other source or is it just you assuming?

This is the first time I hear about this story and there's not much info.

The arrest may still be warranted if for instance the aggressor was stabbed an outrageous amount of time suggesting the defendant was at some point no more acting in self defense. Same if the aggressor attempted to flee at some point and still got stabbed. 

District Attorney Alvin Bragg's political affiliation is with the Democratic party.

Alvin Bragg Jr. - Ballotpedia

Alvin Bragg - Wikipedia

One of Alba's biggest supporters is NYC Mayor Eric Adams, who is also a Democrat and spend much of his career advocating for police reform against the policies of Rudy Giuliani. 

This "outrage from the left" appears to be manufactured in this video by Fox News, the NY Post, and Inside Edition, all of which I would take with grains of salt the size of a mountain. 



KLAMarine on 12 July 2022

I'd agree the bodega worker's use of force was excessive if he kept stabbing after his assailant had collapsed. I don't see that here, I see a two versus one situation... https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-video-jose-alba-harlem-bodega-stabbing-20220711-tshwllerqba47anjnbtto3r37m-story.html



KLAMarine on 12 July 2022

Additional video, the assailant/victim's girlfriend threatening force prior to the ultimate confrontation... Also of note is the bodega worker trying to de-escalate when the assailant/victim trespasses...

https://nypost.com/2022/07/12/video-compilation-shows-events-that-led-to-deadly-nyc-bodega-stabbing/



KLAMarine on 12 July 2022
Torillian said:
KLAMarine said:

District Attorney Alvin Bragg's political affiliation is with the Democratic party.

Alvin Bragg Jr. - Ballotpedia

Alvin Bragg - Wikipedia

So's the mayor from the clip who said it was fucked up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Adams

It's New York City....

"So's the mayor from the clip who said it was fucked up"

A most excellent of points. Thank you for this.



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ConservagameR on 13 July 2022
SuaveSocialist said:

ConservagameR said:

Grasping as straws? The US isn't number 1 in any and all social aspects? 

Also, why does being number 1 matter? Are all nations who are number 2 or less, horrible, terrible, try to do better nations?

Are social aspects only of importance or are they just higher priority vs everything else? Is there anything that's top priority across time?

What does making the news matter? If it didn't make the news, would it no longer be a concern or less of a concern perhaps?

If it works, then can I assume that any nation that ever reduce(d)(s) gun deaths has a working formula? If not, how much and for how long?

Grasping at straws? What does Australia being resource rich have anything to do with the original points made?

How similar? Is Australia an irredeemably racist nation? Are most problems said to be partially, or mostly due to past or present racism? Does the media proclaim that to the world on a daily basis? Would it be true? What if it wasn't?

If America having comparable heath care and gun deaths to Australia led to more and more Ukraine situations, likely worse, would that be better if that's how it ended up turning out? Maybe, maybe not, but if it did, then what?

Are you familiar with the term 'sealioning'?

Are you familiar with the phrase, nothings as it seems? How about the dress color conundrum?

Which color is it?

"However, experts agree that the only individuals who can accurately identify “the dress” are those who see it in person."

The Dress: Science Explains the Blue, Black, White and Gold | Time

I've seen the dress in person, and you're looking at the picture. Are you seeing what I'm seeing? Doesn't seem like it.

the-pi-guy said:
ConservagameR said:

Like Japan should do better with their gun laws. Look at what just happened there because of how lax they are. Or are they?

What a good example of:

1.) Cherry picking

2.) Perfect solution fallacy

When we look at the success of policies, the point isn't to look at whether it's 100% successful. We compare the before and after. When someone says "y country hasn't had a mass shooting in x years", the point isn't that the policy is 100% successful. The point is we're comparing the 100 or mass shootings to the 0 in that same time period.

Suppose the US saw 100 mass shootings in 10 years (depending on what the definition of mass shooting is being used), and they passed some policies, and the 10 years immediately following, saw only 10 mass shootings, that would show those policies were successful at decreasing mass shootings. That would overall be a success, even if there was more work to do. 
But the idea that means it was a failure and not worth doing is just absolutely nonsense. That hypothetical policy was absolutely worth doing, despite not being 100% successful.

ConservagameR said:

Grasping as straws? The US isn't number 1 in any and all social aspects? Not very specific especially to the original points made.

Also, why does being number 1 matter? Are all nations who are number 2 or less, horrible, terrible, try to do better nations?

Are social aspects only of importance or are they just higher priority vs everything else? Is there anything that's top priority across time?

High profile death means little to nothing. A gun death is a gun death. It's not like Abe was destined to be targeted and killed by a gunman.

What does making the news matter? If it didn't make the news, would it no longer be a concern or less of a concern perhaps?

If it works, then can I assume that any nation that ever reduce(d)(s) gun deaths has a working formula? If not, how much and for how long?

Grasping at straws? What does Australia being resource rich have anything to do with the original points made?

How similar? Is Australia an irredeemably racist nation? Are most problems said to be partially, or mostly due to past or present racism? Does the media proclaim that to the world on a daily basis? Would it be true? What if it wasn't?

This begs a question for me.

Why is sealioning such a prominent feature in this thread?

It's totally fine if you have genuine questions, a lot of us here will either happily or begrudgingly answer tons of questions.

But it's concerning when:

a.) some of these questions are easily answered by anyone in this thread.

b.) when someone seems more interested in breaking down the opposition, instead of actually having any points of their own. (Not saying this is you)

b2.) when someone is primarily in this thread, asking pointed questions

On A:

You: How much of the world consumes or depends on America vs Australia? Which country worldwide has the most immigrants?

Pem: Australia is a resource rich nation that underpins the entire planets manufacturing.

You: What does Australia being resource rich have anything to do with the original points made?

Do you not understand that he's countering your original point about the world being dependant on US/Australia?

His point is that the US and Australia has a lot in common, I would say much more than is different.

Most importantly, it's bizarre to act like the US is some kind of totally different object that regular logic doesn't apply to.

I'm not the one who started comparing to other nations, so the cherry picking started prior and not by me.

Neither of us were talking about perfection, at least I wasn't, and they didn't seem to be either overall.

As for sealioning, see above.

The answer was America and they didn't want to admit that so they made a point about one of Australia's strengths. Yes I understood, while also making the point that if what I was doing was grapsing at staws as told prior, then so was this answer, so were we both participating in that then, or not?

It's bizarre to only see black and white when it's oddly suitable looking in that direction, while always seeing the full spectrum on the opposite side.



ConservagameR on 13 July 2022
sundin13 said:
ConservagameR said:

You're going to have to explain first what exactly you need explained further and how in depth, and to an acceptable degree. I'm not going to lay out every single thing every other nation than America does worse or simply doesn't do good enough.

Why are the actions of other nations relevant? Should we not strive for improvement instead of just saying "Eh, everybody sucks somewhere so let's just keep sucking"?

Also, what is your point regarding Japan? Is the insinuation that their gun laws are a failure, or that the US shouldn't institute similar gun laws because a firearm related homicide occurred recently?

Why are other nations relevant? See the reply to my initial post below.

My point regarding Japan is that even if you have extremely strict gun laws, people are going to find a way to get guns, or make guns, or use another weapon to kill people. Banning something to solve the problem won't solve it, it would only to some degree, possibly help, and will never end. Taking away guns from law abiding citizens who use them for non aggressive means against humans, that don't over hunt or poach animals, doesn't make any sense. Same reason why nobody wants to take away knives from law abiding citizens in the US, or from any US citizen for that matter, at least for now. Elsewhere in the world even knives have become a political battle, tied to gun bans. I guess the overall point would be how much has to get banned before everyone is safe enough?

Pemalite said:
EricHiggin said:

Biden follows up by talking about taking action to save lives. He mentions the past and how it was different and how that justifies what he's doing now.

The Republicans (and Supreme Court) are basically using the exact same argument as to RvW and abortion.

What's the point in making sweeping laws and amendments, if the later opposition Gov can just take them away and erase it?

Trump to a degree tries to erase what Obama did. Biden to a degree tries to erase what Trump did. A 2024 Rep win would be erasing Biden's doing's. 

There's little point in attempting to make major change if you can't back it up because the opposition will just reverse or erase it.

You need bipartisan support.

Australia would not have been able to successfully enact gun control if it wasn't for a right-wing conservative government enacting such legislation, it had full support from the start from the left... Which meant there was no desire to overturn it, not socially, not at a government level.

But... We also didn't have the gun lobby paying off politicians and making false information.

Last edited by ConservagameR - on 13 July 2022

ConservagameR on 13 July 2022
Pemalite said:
ConservagameR said:

Not everything would be the same as it's not already. Different people, different culture, different laws, different geography, different country history, etc. Some things are shared or common so yes, some things are and could be the same, but just because it worked there doesn't necessarily mean it'll work everywhere.

We aren't that different.
We have very similar histories... British colonies, displaced the native populace, developed the land and derived our culture and laws from Europe and the native inhabitants.
We also primarily consume the same content... Games often connect to US servers, we get all your movies and TV shows... I.E. Marvel, Game of Thrones etc'.

We also go to war together, the USA goes, we go. We go, the USA goes.

We speak the same language.

Basically shifting the goal post to trying to assert that we are "too different" and that those changes won't work is defeatist, you and your country aren't even willing to try.
What do you have to loose? Your current system is terrible anyway!

Our system has been mirrored across Europe with great success.

Pemalite said:
ConservagameR said:

The US has 125 years on Australia as a nation, as to my prior point about different country history. Before that time, yes, much more similar.

How much of the world consumes or depends on America vs Australia? Which country worldwide has the most immigrants?

There is no too different point being made, just that everything is different and unique in it's own way. It's a big part of America's troubled past.

The Greek and Roman systems led to other great, better systems, and the British or Euro system has led to the same as it branched out, yes.

Dependence of a nation isn't really a sensible approach.
Australia is a resource rich nation that underpins the entire planets manufacturing.

Culturally, historically, ethically we are similar nations. Not the same. Similar.
And regardless of how similar or different we are, doesn't erode the fact that a functional healthcare system and gun control is more than possible in any country, it seems you are grasping at straws now to find *any* reason not to support those policies.

Pemalite said:
ConservagameR said:

We have similar pasts, and while gaps widened once nations, they are becoming more alike again. Though more American as you stated earlier. Still doesn't change the fact that the nations and cultures as a whole still are relatively different, which is why such differences exist today. It's not simply just a problem of time.

You are missing the point that it does NOT matter how different or similar a country is, you can have gun control and universal healthcare.

Others seem to think I was leading to nowhere, going in circles, and while I disagree, I'll go out of my way to be blatantly more direct here.

1st post above - You make the point that the commonalities do matter.

2nd post above - You change your tune a bit to the commonalities matter somewhat.

3rd post above - You fully change your tune to the commonalities do NOT matter at all whatsoever.

Which is it?

There's a bunch of other tune changes like this throughout. Enough that it's hard to take the rest seriously at this point.

And no, not everyone can have everything. Every mature adult understands that, whether it's on an individual or national level.

You seem to prefer Australia over the US. I think they both have their merits and am glad both exist as they do, for the most part.



SuaveSocialist on 13 July 2022
ConservagameR said:
SuaveSocialist said:

Are you familiar with the term 'sealioning'?

Are you familiar with the phrase, nothings as it seems? How about the dress color conundrum?

Which color is it?

I've seen the dress in person, and you're looking at the picture. Are you seeing what I'm seeing? 

Why are you still sealioning?



Runa216 on 13 July 2022
KLAMarine said:

I'd agree the bodega worker's use of force was excessive if he kept stabbing after his assailant had collapsed. I don't see that here, I see a two versus one situation... https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-video-jose-alba-harlem-bodega-stabbing-20220711-tshwllerqba47anjnbtto3r37m-story.html

Man, when multiple mods are all calling you out on your clearly biased political views and honestly not-okay beliefs, maybe you should reconsider your stance.



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