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Forums - Politics - The US Politics |OT|

Runa216 said:
KLAMarine said:

Do you get sick of having to make this point?

oh yeah, I do. I hate the fact that I have to keep saying this to people who don't get it. 

Seriously? He plays dumb, then asks if you're sick of correcting him? What game is this gentleman playing here? 



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Zoombael said:

I'm apolitical, because politics... it is complex. Not in the sense that politics itself is complex. Anyway.

When i look at the BLM logo i don't see an organisation brought into existence primarily to fight racism, support black communities and all that. What i see is a political movement in the extreme left of the political spectrum. I very much dislike extrem-ism, no matter politics, religion, right, left, christian, muslim, scientology. I dislike the subversive and tolliterian nature.

The raised fist is a commonly used symbol amongst freedom, human rights movements aso, true. Keep digging. 

From the BLM website:

"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

"Marxist theory on family established the revolutionary ideal for the Soviet state and influenced state policy concerning family in varying degrees throughout the history of the country. The principals are: The nuclear family unit is an economic arrangement structured to maintain the ideological functions of Capitalism. The family unit perpetuates class inequality through the transfer of private property through inheritance. Following the abolition of private property, the bourgeois family will cease to exist and the union of individuals will become a “purely private affair”. The Soviet state’s first code on marriage and family was written in 1918 and enacted a series of trans-formative laws designed to bring the Soviet family closer in line with Marxist theory."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_in_the_Soviet_Union#Bolshevik_vision_of_the_family

I'm in a bit of pickle here. As a colored person i'm supposed to be automatically supportive of this extreme-left ideology? That's kinda racist? That's not all. There is more to this.

I really don't want to participate in politcal debates, especially not the one going on right now. I can't help it, when i observe what's going on in the (under)world the politics squabble becomes distant chatter in the background.

I'd argue that due to how disorganized the BLM movement is, there are already different messages and agendas in play. But it still scares me that people never bothered to look at such information.

To my eyes this organization will mow down anyone, including their own, just to force their way to achieve their demands. It's really disgusting.



Alara317 said:
Runa216 said:

oh yeah, I do. I hate the fact that I have to keep saying this to people who don't get it. 

Seriously? He plays dumb, then asks if you're sick of correcting him? What game is this gentleman playing here? 

When did I play dumb?



RolStoppable said:
KLAMarine said:

When did I play dumb?

Exactly. It's not an act.

It's not a thing either.



KLAMarine said:
sundin13 said:

First, I'll say that I don't agree with Seth's take on the matter. I don't think his perspective is helpful, though I do understand where he is coming from.

That said, I also don't really think that the fact a body was found is particularly relevant. What the rioting was, was largely a reaction to a failure of the system to remedy its abuses. And it wasn't a reaction based around logic. How could it be? We like to talk about how our government works as if it responds to the reasoned will of the people, but there have been people expressing their frustrations logically for decades. When our systems fail to act to remedy their abuses, and we are shown that being logical and calm doesn't provoke change, that frustration will inevitably boil over. There is no weighing of pros and cons necessary, because the riots were not a result of such an analysis. They are the result of unanswered cries for justice spilling over.

To quote Martin Luther King Jr:

"[A] riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation’s summers of riots are caused by our nation’s winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention."

The damage that was done is terrible, but I don't think that weakens any of the voices demanding change within these broken systems. Riots are a reflection of a system that has failed. The damage that was done doesn't weaken these voices, they only add to the urgency of calls for change.

A riot is also the language of someone who has lost an argument, a pogrom or Kristallnacht participant, or just someone who wants to see the world burn.

For a law enforcement officer out on foot (or for almost anyone actually), a building going up in flames for "truth and justice" looks no different than a building going up in flames because "fuck everything". What is clear is someone is setting a building on fire and people could be in that building trapped beneath flames or choking on smoke and violent crowds about the building need to be cleared away so that firefighters can safely put the fire out.

I appreciate the reverend's poetic words but I find them more poetic than substantive.

That's the thing. It doesn't matter how you interpret the riots. It doesn't matter whether you think the actions were good or bad or just or unjust, just like it doesn't matter what your moral take is on a tsunami. Riots like this exist as a part of a cause/effect chain. There is simply no value in moralizing about the effect. If you wish to prevent this type of thing happening in the future, you would be much better served by fighting the cause.



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iron_megalith said:
sundin13 said:

Trump hasn't "made anything to have them shut down", however he has regularly restricted their access and hampered their ability to do their job, in addition to filing several lawsuits and cease-and-desists against them. One cease and desist was filed in response to low poll numbers that Trump didn't like. Trump has made a lot of steps to intrude on the freedom of the press. Just because he doesn't like what they are saying doesn't mean they don't have the freedom to say it. That is the basis of freedom of speech...

I see no difference in the operations of the press at this point. They're still free to say whatever the hell they want despite it being morally corrupt at times. They are still more focused on taking down Trump and shoving their narrative. In fact, I find the whole Russia investigation fiasco that the mainstream media and Democrats propagated to be the biggest waste of time and tax payer's money.

Trump did fuck up to a degree but how can you not see the bullshit when the democrats and media would rather counter Trump than be reasonable. Trump's China travel ban was met with criticism by Pelosi and the media by saying it's another racist move with ulterior motives of anti-immigration. Pelosi even went as far as to go to Chinatown in San Francisco to show her defiance and demonstrate her "solidarity" to the Chinese American community by urging people to support these local businesses. A few days later, people are now getting stuck at home. A few weeks later, Pelosi is back to running her mouth at every chance she can.

Here's another one. Trump wanted to take down CHAZ as soon as possible but the Mayor and the city council told Trump to fuck off. I cannot stress enough how glad I am that he did back off. We got to see the mayor sing praises about CHAZ in the media calling it a "summer of love". Not too long people are getting assaulted, robbed and killed. The local government decided to draw the line and dismantle CHAZ. Now she has a class action lawsuit against her for mishandling the whole thing which resulted in costly damages to property. The cherry on top of this whole fiasco is that the retards at CHAZ also want her out because they got tear gassed. Now, both sides hate her.

If you still say that this isn't lunacy that is being displayed then I don't know what is. The whole thing is a a bad case of the pot calling the kettle black. Except, I find the other one to be a little bit more deranged than the other.

Oh and I just found this article a while ago. Something extra to toss in for the comedy.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-city-council-president-addresses-protests-targeting-council-members-houses/

I think this is a very interesting post to analyze.

It starts with a bit of an interesting shift in perspective. We shift from a question about Trump's actions, to the effects of those actions. Personally, I feel this is irrelevant. The original assertion was that Trump is "letting people speak their minds" while the left is "pushing for censorship". This is entirely a statement about action, not about effect. This is abundantly clear within the choice to use the word "pushing". It isn't a word which says anything about the success, it is only about the force being applied. As such, we can very much examine the truth of the former statement regarding Trump without looking into whether he is successful. At the core of this issue, is the fact that Trump has repeatedly "pushed" to restrict freedom of speech and has not simply let people speak their minds. You can argue that his push was a failure all you like, but it does nothing to speak to the original hypocrisy within your words. I would not consider someone who has repeatedly tried and failed to restrict speech to be "letting people speak their minds", but perhaps this is where we differ...

Then, we move on to the bulk of your post, which is classic "whataboutism". Distracting from the four sentences about the topic of my post, you have four paragraphs and a link speaking about something that is completely irrelevant. It is just a chant of "what about this" ad infinitum, going so far as to be completely irrelevant to even a discussion of free speech. I am baffled by how you believe this is relevant. I wish to examine solely your assertion that Trump is "letting people speak their minds" and I don't particularly care to move on to completely unrelated topics until that singular point is settled. So please, don't start calling me a hypocrite regarding beliefs I may or may not hypothetically hold while we are staring at a startling example of your own hypocrisy.



KLAMarine said:
Runa216 said:

oh yeah, I do. I hate the fact that I have to keep saying this to people who don't get it. 

How's about a name change to 'Black Lives Also Matter'?

Why do black lives need to exist in relation to other lives? The point of the movement is simply to state exactly what it says: Black Lives matter. It shouldn't need to be relative, it shouldn't need to be justified, it shouldn't need to be compared to other lives. 



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sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

A riot is also the language of someone who has lost an argument, a pogrom or Kristallnacht participant, or just someone who wants to see the world burn.

For a law enforcement officer out on foot (or for almost anyone actually), a building going up in flames for "truth and justice" looks no different than a building going up in flames because "fuck everything". What is clear is someone is setting a building on fire and people could be in that building trapped beneath flames or choking on smoke and violent crowds about the building need to be cleared away so that firefighters can safely put the fire out.

I appreciate the reverend's poetic words but I find them more poetic than substantive.

That's the thing. It doesn't matter how you interpret the riots. It doesn't matter whether you think the actions were good or bad or just or unjust, just like it doesn't matter what your moral take is on a tsunami. Riots like this exist as a part of a cause/effect chain. There is simply no value in moralizing about the effect. If you wish to prevent this type of thing happening in the future, you would be much better served by fighting the cause.

Right! We arrest these arsonists so that they don't set any more fires in the future!

Runa216 said:
KLAMarine said:

How's about a name change to 'Black Lives Also Matter'?

Why do black lives need to exist in relation to other lives? The point of the movement is simply to state exactly what it says: Black Lives matter. It shouldn't need to be relative, it shouldn't need to be justified, it shouldn't need to be compared to other lives. 

I was just thinking a tweak to the name would cut down on the number of times you have to clarify the meaning of the name.



KLAMarine said:
sundin13 said:

That's the thing. It doesn't matter how you interpret the riots. It doesn't matter whether you think the actions were good or bad or just or unjust, just like it doesn't matter what your moral take is on a tsunami. Riots like this exist as a part of a cause/effect chain. There is simply no value in moralizing about the effect. If you wish to prevent this type of thing happening in the future, you would be much better served by fighting the cause.

Right! We arrest these arsonists so that they don't set any more fires in the future!

That is again fighting the symptom, not the cause. We will continue to wind up in these situations until we actually fix the broken systems which led to these protests. Plus, as a tiny little bonus, we will also not have a broken criminal justice system, which is good I guess.



sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

Right! We arrest these arsonists so that they don't set any more fires in the future!

That is again fighting the symptom, not the cause. We will continue to wind up in these situations until we actually fix the broken systems which led to these protests. Plus, as a tiny little bonus, we will also not have a broken criminal justice system, which is good I guess.

A riotous arsonist IS the cause of the fire. Arrest him or her and they shouldn't be able to set any more fires.

SpokenTruth said:
KLAMarine said:

How's about a name change to 'Black Lives Also Matter'?

Why?  You obviously know it's implied so you're playing either ignorance or instigation. 

KLAMarine said:

I was just thinking a tweak to the name would cut down on the number of times you have to clarify the meaning of the name.

Bullshit.  You know what it means and yet you still trot out 'all lives matter' and 'black lives matter also'.  If you understand the message, then it doesn't need tweaking just not appease you.

In fact, this exemplifies the whole problem.  Even during a movement to better their lives you want to turn it around to be about you and change it up just to make you feel better.

And do you honestly think that would have made a damn bit of difference if the movement was called 'black lives matter also'?  Hell no.  We'd just have the counter-protest of 'white lives matter also'.

Well yeah, I suggested a name change to hopefully cut down on the number of times the name's meaning needs to be clarified. This way, we can get down to discussing the more important matter of reform rather than wasting time and energy discussing semantics...

How is this me making it about me?