Look I'm not your enemy. I'm a Thor damn citizen. America must come to reconning because we are only fooling ourselves otherwise. To admit you are wrong is only the first step
So anyway, if anyone's wondering if the actions of the Portland secret police are legal, read this:
https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-heck-are-federal-law-enforcement-officers-doing-portland
The answer: almost certainly not.
ICE (aka border patrol) IS actually allowed to be there since Portland is within 100 miles of the border with international waters (go figure). The DHS dudes are allowed to be on federal courthouse grounds, and enforce the law if they see it violated if they see it nearby said grounds. And they are allowed to use unmarked rental cars. HOWEVER...
It is illegal for them to zip around the city far from federal property. It is illegal for them to arrest people without witnessing a crime, probable cause, or a warrant. Even IF those stipulations are met, they are bound by Oregon state law to immediately transfer suspects to local authorities, AND they can only do THAT if they receive training and certification from Oregon. And finally, state law requires them to inform suspects of which govt department they're from, the reason for arrest, and their Miranda rights post haste.
Let's just say they are far from batting a thousand on all that stuff.
coolbeans said:
Wait...would this be considered a formal request for me to wear blackface? In all seriousness, now you're just acting confrontational without having any kind of central point. We get it! One body doesn't impress you.
That tenuous reasoning doesn't really work when talking about the death of innocents. By that logic, does the "it's just businesses" narrative only begin to crumble when the amount of dead victims outnumber the amount of businesses burned? And where do lesser charges come into this equation, such as potential assaults against owners who don't want their businesses destroyed? You're not really on sturdy ground in defending the message when you're elevating a practice, such as a rioting, that has a history of allowing opportunists to do shitty things carte blanche. I'm a bit surprised by this b/c your counter-example hurts your overall point. We're talking about two disparate methods eliciting different emotions: -Stadium-filled concert (by intent): "We're here to blast great music to 11 for thousands of people who paid money to see us." -Minneapolis "protests": "We're here to protest the MPD and police in general in their treatment of black victims. Our means of disruption can include vandalizing and/or destroying locally-owned property in order to make our point finally heard." The latter example runs into dodgy territory in respect to responsibility (personal & community). Now that the dust has settled and a dead body has been found, I believe it's worthwhile to ask if you still stand behind the approach that community (and some outside agitators) employed? If you believe some storm was already brewing that couldn't be stopped or whatever then...fine. You simply don't get to pull the limp-wristed "insurance will probably cover it" defense. Just too hard to stick with your arguments that you have to end on a bad-faith comparison, huh? Nice. |
For a writer, you're very bad at this.
I was using the climate change denial thing as an apt comparison since the evidence is remarkably onesided, but cherry-picking data in order to get a point across or misrepresenting data is the only way to make your arguments look reasonable. In this case, you're using one dead body as an excuse to discredit the entirety of the protests currently going on in the US, painting the entire movement as inherently violent or with ill intent because one person died without considering the various other factors involved.
Correlation is not causation. You should know better. Throwing around more complicated words and using proper grammar doesn't suddenly make your argument a good one, you're still wrong, you're still doing a shit job justifying your side of the argument, and you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to discredit what's going on or to paint protestors as enemies or villains when they're the opposite of that.
Jeez, at least JK Rowling appeared reasonable with her TERFy nonsense. SHE actually is good at her job and is able to compile real data and construct her arguments in a way that sound appealing even if they're wrong as hell. Not related to this thread, but definitely similar to this argument: Using fancy words and proper grammar to try and put across shitty logic and terrible views.
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sundin13 said:
First, I'll say that I don't agree with Seth's take on the matter. I don't think his perspective is helpful, though I do understand where he is coming from. That said, I also don't really think that the fact a body was found is particularly relevant. What the rioting was, was largely a reaction to a failure of the system to remedy its abuses. And it wasn't a reaction based around logic. How could it be? We like to talk about how our government works as if it responds to the reasoned will of the people, but there have been people expressing their frustrations logically for decades. When our systems fail to act to remedy their abuses, and we are shown that being logical and calm doesn't provoke change, that frustration will inevitably boil over. There is no weighing of pros and cons necessary, because the riots were not a result of such an analysis. They are the result of unanswered cries for justice spilling over. To quote Martin Luther King Jr: "[A] riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation’s summers of riots are caused by our nation’s winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention." The damage that was done is terrible, but I don't think that weakens any of the voices demanding change within these broken systems. Riots are a reflection of a system that has failed. The damage that was done doesn't weaken these voices, they only add to the urgency of calls for change. |
A riot is also the language of someone who has lost an argument, a pogrom or Kristallnacht participant, or just someone who wants to see the world burn.
For a law enforcement officer out on foot (or for almost anyone actually), a building going up in flames for "truth and justice" looks no different than a building going up in flames because "fuck everything". What is clear is someone is setting a building on fire and people could be in that building trapped beneath flames or choking on smoke and violent crowds about the building need to be cleared away so that firefighters can safely put the fire out.
I appreciate the reverend's poetic words but I find them more poetic than substantive.
SpokenTruth said:
1). Who are burning down what cities? 2). What have they destroyed? 3). You do realized we've had race protests, police protests, riots, BLM, Anti-Fa, etc...even before Trump was elected, right?
1). Trump is letting people speak their minds by using unnamed federal agents to kidnap and detain them? 2). Private entity. They control their own ToS, just like here. Spout off blatant racism or post pornography and we will restrict you ability to further do so on this platform. And you agreed to abide by it when you registered. Same as any social media platform. 3). Can you exemplify? Or is that just hyperbole? 4). Not too informed on what makes something fascist, are you? Social media are private, global corporations. The exact opposite of what typifies fascism. 5). 6). See Point 2. 7). Please. Go on. Let's here this hypocrisy you speak of. |
1). If you are talking about Portland, it's been 50+ days of unrest with countless property destruction and instances of violence. There are several videos and accounts that prove this. With all that's happened, it's about time he stepped in. Take note that he held back and let CHAZ do its thing. That was a good move on his behalf. It let the idiots destroy themselves which made for good comedy content, exposed a lot of communist rats that don't know how things work and most of all exposing the failure of the state and local government's leadership. If people say that this is already oppressive as hell, they have not seen other countries quell such insurrection. This is a very privileged country. Authorities have shown maximum tolerance despite relentless assault from the public. Oh and we're not even considering the people that actually live in that area. I can't imagine the frustration of not having a say in this whole thing and being forced to move out.
2,3,4,5B). I believe that even though they are a private entity, things that you post in such platforms are mostly not private in any form or manner. Therefore, it should be treated as a public forum. A tech company is playing with fire when it starts to deal with providing fact checks to topics which it does not have any expertise on. Lazily slapping links and calling them fact checks from sources that could be incorrect in some form is not helping. Such things are to be discussed by the people themselves in order to come into some sort of a middle ground. Not to mention, there have been several accounts of public figures getting banned for having different ideologies. Some are oppressive but some are far from such. They simply got into an argument with a person and they got reported and banned. This kind of enforcement will create a dangerous echo chamber which can fester dangerous ideologies. Social media platforms such as Facebook and Twitter are far from a small private forum. The power and influence that they have goes way beyond that. Mainstream media leverage and thrive on these to propagate their messages in order to reach a large amount of audience. If the power of these things do not convince you, look no further than the cancerous cancel culture. I think it's fair that they're not held accountable to most of the insidious garbage that comes out of their platform as long as they can maintain a healthy public forum for people to discuss certain topics. If they are to shift their policies to only cater to a specific demograph then I don't think that they should benefit from such privileges.
4, 6) You can say whatever you like about Antifa but they are definitely a collective group to a degree. Maybe they don't have leaders as you say which to be honest doesn't really matter. An angry mob doesn't need one. Either way, groups of people that claim to be a part of it while carrying its symbol, will, in most cases, incite violence and disrupt people's rights to freedom of speech. To allow only certain ideologies to be propagated and violently attack dissidents is something that Hitler did before he rose into power. If that's not a form of fascism, then I do not what is. Now I can't say if this is 100% true but there have been some accounts as to these people calling a guy like Daryl Davis a white supremacist just because he was a guest speaker for an event that included some right wing nationalists. Imagine this person that converted actual KKK members into dropping their allegiance to their organization, is now hearing people say that he is a white supremacist. Imagine how ludicrous that sounds. It wouldn't be a far fetched if that were true considering what happened to the likes of Andy Ngo during the UC Berkeley riots and Officer Jackhary Jakcson from Portland.
7) BLM's actions in recent years have painted this facade of them being an advocate against police brutality against blacks. There is nothing wrong with clamoring for changes in policing to end police brutality. In fact, I do agree that there needs to be a change. Several accounts have shown that police training is inconsistent across the country. However, I find this portrayal of BLM is untrue since their are different groups that have different agendas which is fine. But if they are to propagate other agendas then they should not be tone deaf as to what is happening within the black community. When someone talks about BLM and brings up statistics on Black on Black violence, the media and this movement seems to fail to acknowledge what is going on and tries to deflect this truth. Across the country, there have been rampant shootings going on. A lot of those victims are black. Take for example CHAZ, 2 Black teens are dead. Both of which were potentially shot by Black people as well. The utter silence from these groups regarding such matters is deafening. There was a chant that I heard in the earlier days of protests. "White silence is violence". While I find that to be a somewhat an insensitive statement, one can say it can be flipped and used against this movement as well.
I think most people in the middle would agree that there are bad cops and that they should be brought to justice. Racism actually happens. There's no denying it. But please stop making it seem it is only one way and that it cannot be done by the other. For your movement to be associated with hateful words like ACAB is not doing your cause any favor. It further sows divide.The movement also doesn't win my favor until they detach from the extremist ideologies that are festering within this movement. What we need is to unit people and bring back dialogue to the table. We need a voice of reason, not misguided people that are as pathetic as Nick Cannon or Colin Kaepernick. People need to stop labeling black people that disagree with the movement's insanity as nothing but "Uncle Tom".
sundin13 said:
Trump hasn't "made anything to have them shut down", however he has regularly restricted their access and hampered their ability to do their job, in addition to filing several lawsuits and cease-and-desists against them. One cease and desist was filed in response to low poll numbers that Trump didn't like. Trump has made a lot of steps to intrude on the freedom of the press. Just because he doesn't like what they are saying doesn't mean they don't have the freedom to say it. That is the basis of freedom of speech... |
I see no difference in the operations of the press at this point. They're still free to say whatever the hell they want despite it being morally corrupt at times. They are still more focused on taking down Trump and shoving their narrative. In fact, I find the whole Russia investigation fiasco that the mainstream media and Democrats propagated to be the biggest waste of time and tax payer's money.
Trump did fuck up to a degree but how can you not see the bullshit when the democrats and media would rather counter Trump than be reasonable. Trump's China travel ban was met with criticism by Pelosi and the media by saying it's another racist move with ulterior motives of anti-immigration. Pelosi even went as far as to go to Chinatown in San Francisco to show her defiance and demonstrate her "solidarity" to the Chinese American community by urging people to support these local businesses. A few days later, people are now getting stuck at home. A few weeks later, Pelosi is back to running her mouth at every chance she can.
Here's another one. Trump wanted to take down CHAZ as soon as possible but the Mayor and the city council told Trump to fuck off. I cannot stress enough how glad I am that he did back off. We got to see the mayor sing praises about CHAZ in the media calling it a "summer of love". Not too long people are getting assaulted, robbed and killed. The local government decided to draw the line and dismantle CHAZ. Now she has a class action lawsuit against her for mishandling the whole thing which resulted in costly damages to property. The cherry on top of this whole fiasco is that the retards at CHAZ also want her out because they got tear gassed. Now, both sides hate her.
If you still say that this isn't lunacy that is being displayed then I don't know what is. The whole thing is a a bad case of the pot calling the kettle black. Except, I find the other one to be a little bit more deranged than the other.
Oh and I just found this article a while ago. Something extra to toss in for the comedy.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-city-council-president-addresses-protests-targeting-council-members-houses/
Last edited by iron_megalith - on 23 July 2020
| coolbeans said: For your consideration: Body found in Minneapolis pawnshop that was torched in George Floyd protestshttps://nypost.com/2020/07/21/body-found-in-building-torched-during-george-floyd-protests/?utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=SocialFlow If you may have used kid's gloves in weighing the pros/cons of protesters burning businesses in Minneapolis, you don't get to claim "no fatalities" anymore. |
It's absolutely fine. In fact if anything there need to be more fatalities. According to the police, fatalities are unavoidable to get your point across. Killing innocent people is the most police compliant thing the protesters have done so far.
Just see it as a positive sign for protestors and police to come together for a compromise.
If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.
iron_megalith said:
1). If you are talking about Portland, it's been 50+ days of unrest with countless property destruction and instances of violence. There are several videos and accounts that prove this. With all that's happened, it's about time he stepped in. Take note that he held back and let CHAZ do its thing. That was a good move on his behalf. It let the idiots destroy themselves which made for good comedy content, exposed a lot of communist rats that don't know how things work and most of all exposing the failure of the state and local government's leadership. If people say that this is already oppressive as hell, they have not seen other countries quell such insurrection. This is a very privileged country. Authorities have shown maximum tolerance despite relentless assault from the public. Oh and we're not even considering the people that actually live in that area. I can't imagine the frustration of not having a say in this whole thing and being forced to move out. 2,3,4,5B). I believe that even though they are a private entity, things that you post in such platforms are mostly not private in any form or manner. Therefore, it should be treated as a public forum. A tech company is playing with fire when it starts to deal with providing fact checks to topics which it does not have any expertise on. Lazily slapping links and calling them fact checks from sources that could be incorrect in some form is not helping. Such things are to be discussed by the people themselves in order to come into some sort of a middle ground. Not to mention, there have been several accounts of public figures getting banned for having different ideologies. Some are oppressive but some are far from such. They simply got into an argument with a person and they got reported and banned. This kind of enforcement will create a dangerous echo chamber which can fester dangerous ideologies. Social media platforms such as Facebook and Twitter are far from a small private forum. The power and influence that they have goes way beyond that. Mainstream media leverage and thrive on these to propagate their messages in order to reach a large amount of audience. If the power of these things do not convince you, look no further than the cancerous cancel culture. I think it's fair that they're not held accountable to most of the insidious garbage that comes out of their platform as long as they can maintain a healthy public forum for people to discuss certain topics. If they are to shift their policies to only cater to a specific demograph then I don't think that they should benefit from such privileges. 4, 6) You can say whatever you like about Antifa but they are definitely a collective group to a degree. Maybe they don't have leaders as you say which to be honest doesn't really matter. An angry mob doesn't need one. Either way, groups of people that claim to be a part of it while carrying its symbol, will, in most cases, incite violence and disrupt people's rights to freedom of speech. To allow only certain ideologies to be propagated and violently attack dissidents is something that Hitler did before he rose into power. If that's not a form of fascism, then I do not what is. Now I can't say if this is 100% true but there have been some accounts as to these people calling a guy like Daryl Davis a white supremacist just because he was a guest speaker for an event that included some right wing nationalists. Imagine this person that converted actual KKK members into dropping their allegiance to their organization, is now hearing people say that he is a white supremacist. Imagine how ludicrous that sounds. It wouldn't be a far fetched if that were true considering what happened to the likes of Andy Ngo during the UC Berkeley riots and Officer Jackhary Jakcson from Portland. 7) BLM's actions in recent years have painted this facade of them being an advocate against police brutality against blacks. There is nothing wrong with clamoring for changes in policing to end police brutality. In fact, I do agree that there needs to be a change. Several accounts have shown that police training is inconsistent across the country. However, I find this portrayal of BLM is untrue since their are different groups that have different agendas which is fine. But if they are to propagate other agendas then they should not be tone deaf as to what is happening within the black community. When someone talks about BLM and brings up statistics on Black on Black violence, the media and this movement seems to fail to acknowledge what is going on and tries to deflect this truth. Across the country, there have been rampant shootings going on. A lot of those victims are black. Take for example CHAZ, 2 Black teens are dead. Both of which were potentially shot by Black people as well. The utter silence from these groups regarding such matters is deafening. There was a chant that I heard in the earlier days of protests. "White silence is violence". While I find that to be a somewhat an insensitive statement, one can say it can be flipped and used against this movement as well. I think most people in the middle would agree that there are bad cops and that they should be brought to justice. Racism actually happens. There's no denying it. But please stop making it seem it is only one way and that it cannot be done by the other. For your movement to be associated with hateful words like ACAB is not doing your cause any favor. It further sows divide.The movement also doesn't win my favor until they detach from the extremist ideologies that are festering within this movement. What we need is to unit people and bring back dialogue to the table. We need a voice of reason, not misguided people that are as pathetic as Nick Cannon or Colin Kaepernick. People need to stop labeling black people that disagree with the movement's insanity as nothing but "Uncle Tom".
I see no difference in the operations of the press at this point. They're still free to say whatever the hell they want despite it being morally corrupt at times. They are still more focused on taking down Trump and shoving their narrative. In fact, I find the whole Russia investigation fiasco that the mainstream media and Democrats propagated to be the biggest waste of time and tax payer's money. Trump did fuck up to a degree but how can you not see the bullshit when the democrats and media would rather counter Trump than be reasonable. Trump's China travel ban was met with criticism by Pelosi and the media by saying it's another racist move with ulterior motives of anti-immigration. Pelosi even went as far as to go to Chinatown in San Francisco to show her defiance and demonstrate her "solidarity" to the Chinese American community by urging people to support these local businesses. A few days later, people are now getting stuck at home. A few weeks later, Pelosi is back to running her mouth at every chance she can. Here's another one. Trump wanted to take down CHAZ as soon as possible but the Mayor and the city council told Trump to fuck off. I cannot stress enough how glad I am that he did back off. We got to see the mayor sing praises about CHAZ in the media calling it a "summer of love". Not too long people are getting assaulted, robbed and killed. The local government decided to draw the line and dismantle CHAZ. Now she has a class action lawsuit against her for mishandling the whole thing which resulted in costly damages to property. The cherry on top of this whole fiasco is that the retards at CHAZ also want her out because they got tear gassed. Now, both sides hate her. If you still say that this isn't lunacy that is being displayed then I don't know what is. The whole thing is a a bad case of the pot calling the kettle black. Except, I find the other one to be a little bit more deranged than the other. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-city-council-president-addresses-protests-targeting-council-members-houses/ |
Thanks. I was going to reply him but I already got so many pending replies that I just dont have the time to keep on engaging those conversations that demand looking for links, sources, answering several different questions, watching shady youtubers and etc. Maybe during the weekend when I have more time.
|
7). Please. Go on. Let's here this hypocrisy you speak of. |
I'd like to know if people here debating know what Black Lives Matter is. Why it is.
Hunting Season is done...
Zoombael said:
I'd like to know if people here debating know what Black Lives Matter is. Why it is. |
Something that can be help reform the police but it is also important that the movement takes steps back again and become less agressive when they do get what they want,they need to have a place to go/next goal when this is over.
Cause it can devolve into groups with(much more) supremacists and more extreme hatefull racist crimes may happen frequently.
It is now very important for the goverment to listen to the people.
Anyway i'm glad you people are talking about it again,it needs to be the focus till things get better in america.
Last edited by Immersiveunreality - on 23 July 2020
I'm apolitical, because politics... it is complex. Not in the sense that politics itself is complex. Anyway.
When i look at the BLM logo i don't see an organisation brought into existence primarily to fight racism, support black communities and all that. What i see is a political movement in the extreme left of the political spectrum. I very much dislike extrem-ism, no matter politics, religion, right, left, christian, muslim, scientology. I dislike the subversive and tolliterian nature.
The raised fist is a commonly used symbol amongst freedom, human rights movements aso, true. Keep digging.
From the BLM website:
"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
"Marxist theory on family established the revolutionary ideal for the Soviet state and influenced state policy concerning family in varying degrees throughout the history of the country. The principals are: The nuclear family unit is an economic arrangement structured to maintain the ideological functions of Capitalism. The family unit perpetuates class inequality through the transfer of private property through inheritance. Following the abolition of private property, the bourgeois family will cease to exist and the union of individuals will become a “purely private affair”. The Soviet state’s first code on marriage and family was written in 1918 and enacted a series of trans-formative laws designed to bring the Soviet family closer in line with Marxist theory."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_in_the_Soviet_Union#Bolshevik_vision_of_the_family
I'm in a bit of pickle here. As a colored person i'm supposed to be automatically supportive of this extreme-left ideology? That's kinda racist? That's not all. There is more to this.
I really don't want to participate in politcal debates, especially not the one going on right now. I can't help it, when i observe what's going on in the (under)world the politics squabble becomes distant chatter in the background.
Last edited by Zoombael - on 23 July 2020Hunting Season is done...
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