By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics - The US Politics |OT|

tsogud on 19 August 2019
Baalzamon said:
Machiavellian said:

Yep, it's the answer you expected.  It's like the answer a lot of white people expected when people of color stated decades about police abuse and white people would say, naw it's your fault.  Now a days there is video evidence and they still say, naw it's your fault.  You were moving, didn't follow orders, blew your nose whatever.  Its the same basic dismissal people of color have experienced on so many occasions that your answer was also expected.  Nope there is no discrimination in the workplace because I can show you one example where people of color could show you thousands.  Nothing to see here just another dismissal as usual.

It actually has nothing to do with white black Asian or any other race.

I've just heard this EXACT argument from virtually every single person that has ever discussed being underpaid.

They all think they are indesposable, high performers, team players, etc.

I've even used this same argument when I've thought I was underpaid. I've thought that my particular case was more an instance of ageism and the owners just thinking I was too young to make any more, but the problem was quickly resolved by leaving.

I haven't even stated that this case is with absolute certainty false. I simply went into detail about why a situation such as that when described often excludes many of the details necessary. As a result, the example is quite frankly useless.

But in this process, I've apparently myself become a horrible racist for even suggesting somebody could POSSIBLY not know all of the details.

Wow. That is incredibly insensitive. My experience with workplace discrimination is "useless." Bruh no one needed you to state the obvious in the first place. Your original comment wasn't needed. You're not a poc so I realize you don't actually know what we go through. So it's understandable that you come from a place of ignorance but it's obvious you just don't give a shit and choose to be ignorant. Machiavellian is absolutely right.



 

Around the Network
sundin13 on 19 August 2019
Snoopy said:
sundin13 said:

Cities are not getting worse in terms of crime rates. The vast majority are getting better and have been for decades. There has been an uptick in homicides in some areas (such as Chicago), however if the assertion here is that homicide rates are increasing because of democratic governance, most of these areas have been democratic for years, so it wouldn't make sense to assert that a recent uptick is a result of the same policies that have existed for years of decline.

If you compare to the 90's you are right. That is when Liberals were at their worse after all. However, if you see what is happening now in the last few years, it is getting worse. That's why you are seeing a spike at the end of the graph for those cities. Also, there are also other cities like Baltimore that will cause a huge spike. There is also more to crime besides murder.

Your argument is bad, dude. Democrats were worst in the '90s when homicides were rapidly decreasing? Or what, they were "bad" in exactly 1990-1991 but then were suddenly great for the next twenty years and then suddenly they were "bad" again?

This is an arbitrary argument which rests on how vague it is. There is nothing of substance here.



Baalzamon on 19 August 2019
tsogud said:
Baalzamon said:

I'm sorry, but that is the most ridiculous argument I think I've quite frankly ever seen.

You not only proceed to tell me you absolutely can tell with certainty when something is due to race (when quite frankly, I hear stretches about this all the time. I ALSO hear many cases that prove to be true. But simply being somebody that HAS experienced something does not make you some all wise person who can just tell with certainty every single case that had to do with race). So no, for doubting your ONLINE example that illustrates this perfect instance of supposed racism, I'm not some racist myself.

It is also QUITE ironic how you completely dismiss my ability to judge your situation...you then proceed to say how there is quite clearly another reason for mine. You indicate it must mean I wasn't qualified, or was too racist, or didnt realize she had a different job title than me.

Do you not find it even remotely ironic how your situation cannot POSSIBLY have another explanation, yet you are able to come up with all of these explanations for my situation? For all I know, they absolutely couldn't stand me and just didn't want to pay me more. That is absolutely possible.

But it's also possible in your case. Get off the high horse buddy.

Buddy, that was the point of that paragraph.... It was supposed to be ironic to point out the ridiculousness of your statement. That one flew right over your head. How is anybody supposed to trust your judgement if you can't even see that?

My judgement? Uhhhh, the only use of my judgement in my "argument" (which isn't even really an argument so much as a simple point), was just asking the simple question of whether or not the pay discrepancy could be related to other issues as well.

Numerous people immediately proceeded to flip out over this simple statement (which, is quite frankly, a perfectly normal line of thought given the "facts" provided), and indicate how I'm a horrible racist that couldn't possibly understand the situation.

The situation provided was rather vague. You indicated only that you made $15/hour, and your friends who did the same tasks made $20/hour. We are supposed to then believe with all our heart the only reasoning to this is racism, when pay discrepancies such as this are rampant (they may well be more frequent for people of another race).

Subsequent to my point, you add that you were a highly regarded employee who needed to train these people. This just sounds....so familiar to my situation, yet you continue insisting the ONLY reason to explain your situation is racism, when that clearly is not the case.

Have I said your case isn't racism? Nope. I'm only saying that there could be more to the story. For all I know, the owner/bosses might have consistently proven themselves racist, made horrible remarks to you, etc. Heck, maybe they told you when you talked to them that you don't deserve any more cause you are just a horrible X person.

Generally speaking, there are numerous factors that influence a person's pay, many of which aren't fully known/realized by the employees. Your case is trying to make it seem like somehow you were aware of the only factor that separated your pay.

Others here have even went as far as to say because you have been the subject of racism before, you somehow have this all knowing knowledge of anytime somebody has racist intentions towards you. I've never heard this line of reasoning in my life. Are you likely more aware of it? Sure, that might make sense. But you dont just have this magical ability to decipher every single persons mindset.

Hell, I've been called a racist for merely insinuating there might be more to your vague story...and I wasn't even the only one (people also questioned how you even knew the other employees wages).



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

Baalzamon on 19 August 2019

Your experience is worthless relative to an argument on this board. Absolutely.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newscientist.com/article/2146124-we-ignore-what-doesnt-fit-with-our-biases-even-if-it-costs-us/amp/

People have a tendency to avoid things that don't fit their biases.

I frequently fall trap to the exact same tendencies. I fully expect an answer to say "yep anything that shows racism is clearly fake must be false for you". But you STILL are ignoring that my entire question arose because you provided a vague example that I asked...could there maybe be more to it?

Your continual insistence that it was absolutely only due to racism (which I still can't comprehend how you somehow know with certainty) is my issue here.

Somehow, the mere act of asking somebody if there could be more to a story after they've announced something as racist is apparently racist and insensitive? I really do wonder, does that mean I can't merely question a life scenario of yours after you've indicated it was racist? Because that is all I did. You then blew the hell up on me, which quite frankly, made me completely doubt the entirety of your story that absolutely could have been true (as would be my reaction to anybody who completely blows up when I ask such a simple question).



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

Snoopy on 19 August 2019
sundin13 said:
Snoopy said:

If you compare to the 90's you are right. That is when Liberals were at their worse after all. However, if you see what is happening now in the last few years, it is getting worse. That's why you are seeing a spike at the end of the graph for those cities. Also, there are also other cities like Baltimore that will cause a huge spike. There is also more to crime besides murder.

Your argument is bad, dude. Democrats were worst in the '90s when homicides were rapidly decreasing? Or what, they were "bad" in exactly 1990-1991 but then were suddenly great for the next twenty years and then suddenly they were "bad" again?

This is an arbitrary argument which rests on how vague it is. There is nothing of substance here.

Dude, look at the chart, it wasn't until the late '90s when things started to really improve for some of the cities. It was extremely bad and not just for murders, but the crime rate as a whole. All Democrats really did was move their problems from one city to the next. That chart doesn't show all the major Democrat cities especially ones that are suffering now like never before like Baltimore, San Jose and Memphis.



Around the Network
Baalzamon on 19 August 2019
the-pi-guy said:
Baalzamon said:
About the answer I expected.

And I can still tell you this doesn't mean it has anything to do with being non-white. I continually got told in my 1st job that the company couldn't afford anything over $15/hour. They proceeded to hire an assistant person at $20/hour (I did payroll so was very aware of what she made) who I trained as she had zero experience in the role at all.

I'm a white person, she just clearly was better at negotiating or something.

Regardless, the problem was resolved with me leaving shortly after for a job that treated me better.

These kinds of situations don't always have to boil down to race.

>These kinds of situations don't always have to boil down to race.

I think the difficult thing is that it is often difficult to untangle a potentially racial trend from a potentially racial anecdote.  For example, if you're talking about wage gaps, you can see a racial trend when you look at the normal curves for black and white income makers.  But pointing at specific incidents, it's harder to show that it's indicative of the trend because even if everything was fair, you'd still have incidents where you could pick out people that didn't earn as much.  


There's difficulty with comparing the average experience with a particular one, because a particular one can be pretty random.  

But if someone has a lifetime of these experiences, then it is probably indicative of something more than just random events.  

Snoopy said:

The quote was heard and reported by a reliable insider. Back then, we didn't have the technology or media coverage as we do now to have everything on video. Not to mention LBJ is a known racist who said things that is arguably more racist. 

The real problem is that the quote doesn't really matter.  Yes, Democrats have been racist, intentionally and unintentionally.  

That doesn't mean that all Democrats are racist, and it also doesn't mean that the quote is a real argument.  

FINALLY the answer I was looking for.

He may have had a lifetime of events that were racist and have vastly impacted his life as a result.

But you can't look at a single scenario and just dictate with certainty that this was racist.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

tsogud on 19 August 2019
Baalzamon said:
Your experience is worthless relative to an argument on this board. Absolutely.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newscientist.com/article/2146124-we-ignore-what-doesnt-fit-with-our-biases-even-if-it-costs-us/amp/

People have a tendency to avoid things that don't fit their biases.

I frequently fall trap to the exact same tendencies. I fully expect an answer to say "yep anything that shows racism is clearly fake must be false for you". But you STILL are ignoring that my entire question arose because you provided a vague example that I asked...could there maybe be more to it?

Your continual insistence that it was absolutely only due to racism (which I still can't comprehend how you somehow know with certainty) is my issue here.

Somehow, the mere act of asking somebody if there could be more to a story after they've announced something as racist is apparently racist and insensitive? I really do wonder, does that mean I can't merely question a life scenario of yours after you've indicated it was racist? Because that is all I did. You then blew the hell up on me, which quite frankly, made me completely doubt the entirety of your story that absolutely could have been true (as would be my reaction to anybody who completely blows up when I ask such a simple question).

I'm not gonna read all that shit after the bolded nor will I read the other post. Learn to be a human. I know there are various factors involved in this shit but being a poc I see/notice/know things that most likely won't be apparent to you at first. I'm not an uncivilized savage that needs some white person to "enlighten" me on something that is so obvious and basic.  It's not like I came to this conclusion on a whim, I'm not a lunatic, I don't automatically attribute racism to every injustice I come across. I know what happened to me and I know why it happened. I was there, you weren't. I experienced it, you didn't. Just like you experienced what you did and I have no right to say whether or not you actually experienced it that way.



 

sundin13 on 19 August 2019
Snoopy said:
sundin13 said:

Your argument is bad, dude. Democrats were worst in the '90s when homicides were rapidly decreasing? Or what, they were "bad" in exactly 1990-1991 but then were suddenly great for the next twenty years and then suddenly they were "bad" again?

This is an arbitrary argument which rests on how vague it is. There is nothing of substance here.

Dude, look at the chart, it wasn't until the late '90s when things started to really improve for some of the cities. It was extremely bad and not just for murders, but the crime rate as a whole. All Democrats really did was move their problems from one city to the next. That chart doesn't show all the major Democrat cities especially ones that are suffering now like never before like Baltimore, San Jose and Memphis.

This is objectively false.

All I have left to say to you is this: Please, provide evidence that what you are saying is true if you wish to have a conversation. I can only argue against broad, subjective generalizations and conjecture for so long.



Baalzamon on 19 August 2019

I'm actually rather surprised the murder numbers have decreased so much. Out of curiosity, are acts of terrorism included in these charts?



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

Baalzamon on 19 August 2019
tsogud said:
Baalzamon said:
Your experience is worthless relative to an argument on this board. Absolutely.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newscientist.com/article/2146124-we-ignore-what-doesnt-fit-with-our-biases-even-if-it-costs-us/amp/

People have a tendency to avoid things that don't fit their biases.

I frequently fall trap to the exact same tendencies. I fully expect an answer to say "yep anything that shows racism is clearly fake must be false for you". But you STILL are ignoring that my entire question arose because you provided a vague example that I asked...could there maybe be more to it?

Your continual insistence that it was absolutely only due to racism (which I still can't comprehend how you somehow know with certainty) is my issue here.

Somehow, the mere act of asking somebody if there could be more to a story after they've announced something as racist is apparently racist and insensitive? I really do wonder, does that mean I can't merely question a life scenario of yours after you've indicated it was racist? Because that is all I did. You then blew the hell up on me, which quite frankly, made me completely doubt the entirety of your story that absolutely could have been true (as would be my reaction to anybody who completely blows up when I ask such a simple question).

It's not like I came to this conclusion on a whim, I'm not a lunatic, I don't automatically attribute racism to every injustice I come across.

Nor did I accuse you of this. I merely asked a question I tend to bring up to anybody who complains about their low wages.

I'd also like to point out, however, how quick you were to label me an insensitive racist when you know so so so little about me (you've seen what, a couple of comments I've posted on an online forum?). Bizarre how quick you were able to come to such a conclusion merely based on somebody questioning your story told online.

No more need for this to continue, it's clearly a waste of time.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.