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Forums - PC Discussion - 40 percent of Epic Games Store users say they don't have Steam

The_Liquid_Laser said:

Chazore said:

The thing is, why do I have to go out of my own way, to give you data from a specific point in time?.

You have a strong personal feeling, but that isn't being backed up itself. You're assuming something to being a fact, without actually backing up that side beforehand. 

I just see it as you thinking PC is dog trash in NA, and that it'll never change, but general and revenue data from around the world, from various websites is saying things differently, but again, looking for specific data from a specific time-frame isn't going to automatically trump every data collection/reporting site out there, certainly not one random user on a site that's hardly mentioned as much on the internet. 

"some people think PC is clobbering consoles", and you think it's doing worse, or somehow "50/50"?. According to global revenue, dev sales talks and general talks around the world, PC gaming seems to be doing amazingly better than it was 15 years ago.

Have you even considered taking on the even bigger giant?, the mobile market, which actually does make more money, is more popular, and has more users than consoles combined?. Will that be another "it can't be" situation you'll feel?.

I think you've lost site of my original point.  My issue is that the success of the PC is overstated.  It doesn't have a huge base in older gaming markets like North America.  Growth of Steam comes largely from new territories where consoles do not have much of a presence.  I don't think the PC is dog trash or anything like that. 

Look here are my original two posts.

The_Liquid_Laser said:
I've always felt Valve's numbers are misleading. I would like more hard stats from them. I don't think Valve is as nearly as popular as the big 3 in North America. Instead I think Steam gets a lot of users in places like Russia where consoles are not readily available.

Also, I personally don't use Steam. If I do get a PC game it has always been from gog.com. Given the rise of the Epic Games store, I might consider them as well. So you can count me as the type of person who might use the Epic Games store but not Steam.

The_Liquid_Laser said:

A couple reasons.

1) Before Steam came along we had numbers for both PC and Console sales.  PC games never sold like console games did.  The big money was always in console gaming.  This was also in an era when PC gaming had more exclusives (and better exclusives IMO) than it does now.

2) Valve never gives us all of their data.  This in itself is telling.  The XB1 is not selling well and Microsoft doesn't give us data about the XB1.  I suspect Valve is the same way.  If the data was actually good, then the company would give it to us regularly.

The thing is, it really isn't, that's what you think about the whole picture. You think it's overstated, not "it is", as if it were already a fact, for everyone to see. You're asking for proof to help aid your line of thought, to prove you being right, to assume what you think is fact. That isn't really a good thought process to take on, unless there's an added motive to it. 

I just don't see it your way, where consoles hold some market, that is seemingly untouchable, or has been for years. It's a market that has been tapped and run through over the years. 

Even with the previous points, they still do not ring true now, especially point 1, which has the latter half being entirely subjective. We've also had Steam spy, and even then, the very guy who made it works for Epic and he won't do the same for his own company, shouldn't that also be telling?. 



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Chazore said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

I think you've lost site of my original point.  My issue is that the success of the PC is overstated.  It doesn't have a huge base in older gaming markets like North America.  Growth of Steam comes largely from new territories where consoles do not have much of a presence.  I don't think the PC is dog trash or anything like that. 

Look here are my original two posts.

The thing is, it really isn't, that's what you think about the whole picture. You think it's overstated, not "it is", as if it were already a fact, for everyone to see. You're asking for proof to help aid your line of thought, to prove you being right, to assume what you think is fact. That isn't really a good thought process to take on, unless there's an added motive to it. 

I just don't see it your way, where consoles hold some market, that is seemingly untouchable, or has been for years. It's a market that has been tapped and run through over the years. 

Even with the previous points, they still do not ring true now, especially point 1, which has the latter half being entirely subjective. We've also had Steam spy, and even then, the very guy who made it works for Epic and he won't do the same for his own company, shouldn't that also be telling?. 

My conclusions are based on the data that I actually have.  That is why I am asking for more data.  If you have actual sales data, about either the PC or Steam in North America, then please share it.  Otherwise I must assume I am correct.  In fact, my view is the most reasonable one, because it is based on actual sales data.



The_Liquid_Laser said:
Chazore said:

The thing is, it really isn't, that's what you think about the whole picture. You think it's overstated, not "it is", as if it were already a fact, for everyone to see. You're asking for proof to help aid your line of thought, to prove you being right, to assume what you think is fact. That isn't really a good thought process to take on, unless there's an added motive to it. 

I just don't see it your way, where consoles hold some market, that is seemingly untouchable, or has been for years. It's a market that has been tapped and run through over the years. 

Even with the previous points, they still do not ring true now, especially point 1, which has the latter half being entirely subjective. We've also had Steam spy, and even then, the very guy who made it works for Epic and he won't do the same for his own company, shouldn't that also be telling?. 

My conclusions are based on the data that I actually have.  That is why I am asking for more data.  If you have actual sales data, about either the PC or Steam in North America, then please share it.  Otherwise I must assume I am correct.  In fact, my view is the most reasonable one, because it is based on actual sales data.

But you cannot assume you are, and even Conina pointed out how that thought process makes no sense.

Your view isn't any more reasonable than someone who thinks of something still being stuck in the past though. PC isn't super weak in NA, and no, I don't have to go searching for Steam data to know this, because it's incredibly silly to assume that since the 90's, NA has been on console lockdown, and will be for all eternity (we can't even use the "well maybe not in 50 years, because mobile is already here and so is Streaming). 



Chazore said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

My conclusions are based on the data that I actually have.  That is why I am asking for more data.  If you have actual sales data, about either the PC or Steam in North America, then please share it.  Otherwise I must assume I am correct.  In fact, my view is the most reasonable one, because it is based on actual sales data.

But you cannot assume you are, and even Conina pointed out how that thought process makes no sense.

Your view isn't any more reasonable than someone who thinks of something still being stuck in the past though. PC isn't super weak in NA, and no, I don't have to go searching for Steam data to know this, because it's incredibly silly to assume that since the 90's, NA has been on console lockdown, and will be for all eternity (we can't even use the "well maybe not in 50 years, because mobile is already here and so is Streaming). 

You are accusing me of doing the thing that you yourself are actually doing.  I have past data.  Not great but better than nothing.  You have nothing. You have no sales data.  You just have a strong gut feeling.  You are saying that I cannot assume.  You are assuming and it is based on nothing.

Also, I just noticed that I missed one of Conina's replies, so I'll respond here:

Conina said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

My claim was about North America.  No one can counter my argument about North America, because no one has solid numbers about North America.  The very fact that these numbers are a secret is evidence that my claim is correct.

So I can claim any number or share of any classified or unclear number? And my claim would be correct because it can't be disproved?

Example: I claim that in the last hour 5 billion ants with superpowers were born. You can't prove that I'm wrong, so that's evidence that my claim is correct... yeah, right! 

You misunderstand what I am saying.  Your example is a situation where these is no evidence.  But with Valve's sales data, there actually is a ton of evidence.  But all of the evidence is being kept secret by Valve.  They have all of their sales data.  Why not share it?  Other companies share their sales data all the time in press releases or financial reports.  "Skyrim has sold 30 million copies total."  Stuff like that.  

Valve is extremely secretive with their sales data.  Why?  The secrecy is evidence that the data is unflattering for them.



The_Liquid_Laser said:

Chazore said:

But you cannot assume you are, and even Conina pointed out how that thought process makes no sense.

Your view isn't any more reasonable than someone who thinks of something still being stuck in the past though. PC isn't super weak in NA, and no, I don't have to go searching for Steam data to know this, because it's incredibly silly to assume that since the 90's, NA has been on console lockdown, and will be for all eternity (we can't even use the "well maybe not in 50 years, because mobile is already here and so is Streaming). 

You are accusing me of doing the thing that you yourself are actually doing.  I have past data.  Not great but better than nothing.  You have nothing. You have no sales data.  You just have a strong gut feeling.  You are saying that I cannot assume.  You are assuming and it is based on nothing.

Also, I just noticed that I missed one of Conina's replies, so I'll respond here:

Conina said:

So I can claim any number or share of any classified or unclear number? And my claim would be correct because it can't be disproved?

Example: I claim that in the last hour 5 billion ants with superpowers were born. You can't prove that I'm wrong, so that's evidence that my claim is correct... yeah, right! 

You misunderstand what I am saying.  Your example is a situation where these is no evidence.  But with Valve's sales data, there actually is a ton of evidence.  But all of the evidence is being kept secret by Valve.  They have all of their sales data.  Why not share it?  Other companies share their sales data all the time in press releases or financial reports.  "Skyrim has sold 30 million copies total."  Stuff like that.  

Valve is extremely secretive with their sales data.  Why?  The secrecy is evidence that the data is unflattering for them.

This is not only a Valve problem, its an industry problem. All of them are way too secretive with their numbers.



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I did some digging around and I found some software revenue data for 2014, US.

PC digital revenue was 2.6B 

Console revenue was 5.3B (physical) + .9B (digital) = 6.2B


This says that, in 2014, PC software sales were only 42% of console software sales.  This should put to rest this notion that somehow Steam is somehow the same or bigger in the US than consoles are.

Sources:
https://bluesyemre.com/2015/01/16/us-digital-games-market-december-2014/
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-01-14-npd



The_Liquid_Laser said:

You are accusing me of doing the thing that you yourself are actually doing.  I have past data.  Not great but better than nothing.  You have nothing. You have no sales data.  You just have a strong gut feeling.  You are saying that I cannot assume.  You are assuming and it is based on nothing.

That doesn't automatically cancel me out, so that you can go back to assuming you are correct. You;'re basing old thinking and old times, to override current times and current data, but also without old specific data, you're assuming and trying to state as a fact, that a specific part of the world is somehow stuck in old times with old data. 

Going on past data, to assume the present is still the same isn't kosher my dude. I don't need sales data, because I can see how well the platform is doing without having to pick a specific date and time from one storefront, to assume that said platform is doing very bad compared to consoles in one small area. 



Chazore said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

You are accusing me of doing the thing that you yourself are actually doing.  I have past data.  Not great but better than nothing.  You have nothing. You have no sales data.  You just have a strong gut feeling.  You are saying that I cannot assume.  You are assuming and it is based on nothing.

That doesn't automatically cancel me out, so that you can go back to assuming you are correct. You;'re basing old thinking and old times, to override current times and current data, but also without old specific data, you're assuming and trying to state as a fact, that a specific part of the world is somehow stuck in old times with old data. 

Going on past data, to assume the present is still the same isn't kosher my dude. I don't need sales data, because I can see how well the platform is doing without having to pick a specific date and time from one storefront, to assume that said platform is doing very bad compared to consoles in one small area. 

Look at the post I made before this one.



The_Liquid_Laser said:

Look at the post I made before this one.

I saw, and again, that's old data from 4, enarly 5 years ago, compared to now. This is the same as Tim comparing Metro LL sales from a 2013 game to a 2019 release and 2019 market, compared to the 2013 market 6 years ago.

Unless you have current sales data, there is no "I'm right, it's fact", happening here. Also, not just basing on Steam alone, but all other storefront data as well.