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Forums - Sales - Global Hardware 8 December 2018 (Smash Week)

zorg1000 said:
drinkandswim said:

Well that is the thing you are expecting that Nintendo is doing the same as the past. They have already shown interest in having more Third Party support for the Switch. Because everyone knows your game library is what drives system sales, and system sales drives game library. You are also assuming that Microsoft wont have a Handheld with Cloud Gaming as one of the (4) New Systems they are working on. Maybe you are right we will see within the next few years. I do think Nintendo sees value in Third Party support. I do expect they will have a system that is handheld only for Indies and people who are only interested in Switch as a handheld. I also expect a more powerful device. I do think they are also looking at what will split the install base the least, but still keep them competitive. 

3rd party support =/= AAA games

Switch gets a ton small-medium sized titles and that's not going away.

Of course 3rd Party Support =/= AAA games. You need to be capable of AAA games to produce them. If you don't think Nintendo has a plan to get there then that's fine that is your opinion. You will be proven wrong by 2020. 



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drinkandswim said:
zorg1000 said:

3rd party support =/= AAA games

Switch gets a ton small-medium sized titles and that's not going away.

Of course 3rd Party Support =/= AAA games. You need to be capable of AAA games to produce them. If you don't think Nintendo has a plan to get there then that's fine that is your opinion. You will be proven wrong by 2020. 

And you have been proven wrong on nearly everything you have said in this thread yet still keep arguing.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

zorg1000 said:
drinkandswim said:

Of course 3rd Party Support =/= AAA games. You need to be capable of AAA games to produce them. If you don't think Nintendo has a plan to get there then that's fine that is your opinion. You will be proven wrong by 2020. 

And you have been proven wrong on nearly everything you have said in this thread yet still keep arguing.

You haven't proven me wrong on anything yet. My prediction was for next gen. But good luck!



drinkandswim said:
zorg1000 said:

And you have been proven wrong on nearly everything you have said in this thread yet still keep arguing.

You haven't proven me wrong on anything yet. My prediction was for next gen. But good luck!

It is just plain impossible for the "best" portable solution to be better than the "best" "desktop" solution. It's a very simple equation on power, price, battery.

Why or how do you think you would make PS5/X2 equivalent portable, with good battery life and similarly priced?

Because I will tell you that for it to be portable you need to consume less energy so if it is a similar architeture you'll have less performance, if it is a better architeture you will have bigger cost.

So you can expect Switch 2 to have X1 or PS4 level processing power, but at that time PS5/X2 will have about 8-10 times the processing power.

Switch doesn't have same level of AAA games on graphical level nor will Switch 2. As much as PS4/X1 nor PS5/X2 will have same graphical power as upper class gaming rigs.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
drinkandswim said:

You haven't proven me wrong on anything yet. My prediction was for next gen. But good luck!

It is just plain impossible for the "best" portable solution to be better than the "best" "desktop" solution. It's a very simple equation on power, price, battery.

Why or how do you think you would make PS5/X2 equivalent portable, with good battery life and similarly priced?

Because I will tell you that for it to be portable you need to consume less energy so if it is a similar architeture you'll have less performance, if it is a better architeture you will have bigger cost.

So you can expect Switch 2 to have X1 or PS4 level processing power, but at that time PS5/X2 will have about 8-10 times the processing power.

Switch doesn't have same level of AAA games on graphical level nor will Switch 2. As much as PS4/X1 nor PS5/X2 will have same graphical power as upper class gaming rigs.

I never said anything about a PS5/X2 Portable Equivalent. I said Nintendo Switch needs to release a Pro that can offer Xbox One/PS4 graphics by the time the Next Gen arrives on the market in order to stay relevant, and get some third party ports. 



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drinkandswim said:
DonFerrari said:

It is just plain impossible for the "best" portable solution to be better than the "best" "desktop" solution. It's a very simple equation on power, price, battery.

Why or how do you think you would make PS5/X2 equivalent portable, with good battery life and similarly priced?

Because I will tell you that for it to be portable you need to consume less energy so if it is a similar architeture you'll have less performance, if it is a better architeture you will have bigger cost.

So you can expect Switch 2 to have X1 or PS4 level processing power, but at that time PS5/X2 will have about 8-10 times the processing power.

Switch doesn't have same level of AAA games on graphical level nor will Switch 2. As much as PS4/X1 nor PS5/X2 will have same graphical power as upper class gaming rigs.

I never said anything about a PS5/X2 Portable Equivalent. I said Nintendo Switch needs to release a Pro that can offer Xbox One/PS4 graphics by the time the Next Gen arrives on the market in order to stay relevant, and get some third party ports. 

Switch is quite "near" X1/PS4 graphics. But by next gen time that won't be enough to get ports.

X1 is like 1,2 TF and next gen on 12-15TF level (less than that would be low considering X1X already cross 6TF), I know TF isn't all but just as generic measuring the gap we can stay on it. So if Switch Pro or Switch 2 only get inside 1,2-1,6 TF level of processing power/graphics it won't receive AAA 3rd party (not that it even needs, AA and Indies would be enough to fill the gaps on Nintendo releasing schedule).

More important than reaching near X1 or PS4 level of graphic would be similar tech of PS5 and X2, because not using similar tech (even if a lot less powered) would be worse on the scalability and porting than the pure power gap.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Hiku said:
drinkandswim said:

No, I absolutely do not expect to see a major impact in the first two years of a brand new systems life. You really think that a 0 install base system is going to make a major impact on already existing install bases. And granted I base my prediction of Xbox 4 failing on the basis that Nintendo pulls out the right cards up to 2020. That could not happen. I don't think PS5 is going to fail I just don't see it reaching PS4 numbers. 

But if we haven't seen a significant impact in the first two years of Switch on the market (which I agree with), then why would you say that PS5 and XBO are in big trouble?

I wouldn't expect PS5 to do PS4 numbers even if Switch didn't exist. There have only been 3 home consoles in the history of gaming to pass 100m units. PS4 will be the 4th to do it. And it will probably end up being the #2 best selling home console of all time.
That's not something you'd just expect by default for PS5.
'Not doing PS4 numbers' does not equal 'big trouble'. In terms of sales, even N64's 32M was not considered a failure. (Losing all the 3rd party support was, though.)

If Nintendo can transition properly without fracturing their install base with a Pro Version. Switch will have a 70 million install base by the time next gen arrives. The technological leap for Microsoft from Xbox One to Xbox 4 is going to be minimal. I mean they are literally talking about ray tracing as the only improvement but still only offering 4k 30fps. Which is way below PC Capabilities. Switch in the meantime is using 20nm technology and there is already 7nm technology available for mobile devices. 20 nm to 7 nm is a much bigger technological leap than the next console generation leap. TV technology 4K wont be mainstream until 2020 which means that limits the upward limits as far as resolution goes. Now like I said in my initial argument maybe Sony or Microsoft have a hybrid that demolishes Switch, but if they just go Console against Switch they could be in trouble. The power increase from Xbox One X to Xbox 4 is going to be very minimal. Will it be enough reason for an upgrade?

And although we say overall Switch hasn't made an impact on PS4 Sales and Xbox One sales yet, they are still trending towards that. Keep in mind that Xbox One X (a major revision) Launched a year ago and Xbox One Sales are at best flat for 2018.

Market Share 2016        2017                      2018                  2016 to 2018 Market Share Changes

Hardware

PS4 65%                           49.3%                     45.0%                 - 20%

Xbox One 31%                18.8%                     18.5%                  -12.5%

Wii U 4.2%                       32.0% (NS)             36.5% (NS)         +32.3%

Software

PS4 64%                           59.9%                      56.8%                    -7.2%

Xbox One 29.4%             22.9%                      20.6%                     -8.8%

Wii U 7%                          17.2% (NS)              22.5% (NS)            +15.5%

 

Now you can blame it all you want on age or 3DS dropping from the market. However, I do feel Switch is making some impact that wont be fully felt until 2019 and 2020 upto the launch of the new systems. Also keep in mind that the Switch is priced at $299. The 3DS was at a $150 price point or less for the 2DS models. So Switch is priced as more of a console than a handheld (currently).

 

(Note 2018 Market Share %'s as of November 24th from VG Chartz Global numbers. 2016 and 2017 from VG Chartz Yearly Global Numbers.)

Last edited by drinkandswim - on 04 January 2019

drinkandswim said:

BTW the new IPAD's already have Xbox One S graphics so to expect Nintendo to have a system of base Xbox One graphics isn't really a tremendous ask. It will be required to keep momentum past 2020. Otherwise Nintendo Switch will have a nice little four year run and fade off into the wild blue yonder. 

If you really believe this...........



Intrinsic said:
drinkandswim said:

BTW the new IPAD's already have Xbox One S graphics so to expect Nintendo to have a system of base Xbox One graphics isn't really a tremendous ask. It will be required to keep momentum past 2020. Otherwise Nintendo Switch will have a nice little four year run and fade off into the wild blue yonder. 

If you really believe this...........

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/apple-says-its-new-ipad-is-as-powerful-as-xbox-one/1100-6462892/

 

I haven't benchmarked it myself. I am going by what Apple is saying and Phil Spencer himself hasn't shot it down actually complimented the comparison. 



drinkandswim said:
Hiku said:

But if we haven't seen a significant impact in the first two years of Switch on the market (which I agree with), then why would you say that PS5 and XBO are in big trouble?

I wouldn't expect PS5 to do PS4 numbers even if Switch didn't exist. There have only been 3 home consoles in the history of gaming to pass 100m units. PS4 will be the 4th to do it. And it will probably end up being the #2 best selling home console of all time.
That's not something you'd just expect by default for PS5.
'Not doing PS4 numbers' does not equal 'big trouble'. In terms of sales, even N64's 32M was not considered a failure. (Losing all the 3rd party support was, though.)

If Nintendo can transition properly without fracturing their install base with a Pro Version. Switch will have a 70 million install base by the time next gen arrives. The technological leap for Microsoft from Xbox One to Xbox 4 is going to be minimal. I mean they are literally talking about ray tracing as the only improvement but still only offering 4k 30fps. Which is way below PC Capabilities. Switch in the meantime is using 20nm technology and there is already 7nm technology available for mobile devices. 20 nm to 7 nm is a much bigger technological leap than the next console generation leap. TV technology 4K wont be mainstream until 2020 which means that limits the upward limits as far as resolution goes. Now like I said in my initial argument maybe Sony or Microsoft have a hybrid that demolishes Switch, but if they just go Console against Switch they could be in trouble. The power increase from Xbox One X to Xbox 4 is going to be very minimal. Will it be enough reason for an upgrade?

And although we say overall Switch hasn't made an impact on PS4 Sales and Xbox One sales yet, they are still trending towards that. Keep in mind that Xbox One X (a major revision) Launched a year ago and Xbox One Sales are at best flat for 2018.

Market Share 2016        2017                      2018                  2016 to 2018 Market Share Changes

Hardware

PS4 65%                           49.3%                     45.0%                 - 20%

Xbox One 31%                18.8%                     18.5%                  -12.5%

Wii U 4.2%                       32.0% (NS)             36.5% (NS)         +32.3%

Software

PS4 64%                           59.9%                      56.8%                    -7.2%

Xbox One 29.4%             22.9%                      20.6%                     -8.8%

Wii U 7%                          17.2% (NS)              22.5% (NS)            +15.5%

 

Now you can blame it all you want on age or 3DS dropping from the market. However, I do feel Switch is making some impact that wont be fully felt until 2019 and 2020 upto the launch of the new systems. Also keep in mind that the Switch is priced at $299. The 3DS was at a $150 price point or less for the 2DS models. So Switch is priced as more of a console than a handheld (currently).

 

(Note 2018 Market Share %'s as of November 24th from VG Chartz Global numbers. 2016 and 2017 from VG Chartz Yearly Global Numbers.)

I'm so sorry to disappoint you, but Switch will never have a user base of 70M when PS5 or Next XBox will be released, I think you should revise your calculations; and even if this will MAGICALLY happen, it won't affect PS5 and Next XBox, 'cause both will be True Next Gen Home Consoles capable of massive AAA 3rd Party titles, while Switch or any Switch revision is just a portable console which can be connected to a TV.

 Then you say :""The technological leap for Microsoft from Xbox One to Xbox 4 is going to be minimal. I mean they are literally talking about ray tracing as the only improvement but still only offering 4k 30fps""

I have no idea which is the source where you are collecting your informations, but according to MS, XBox Anaconda will be an insane piece of Hardware, even much more powerful than X1X.

 People who want a Next Gen Home Console will buy XBox or Playstation, people who prefer a portable which can be connected to a TV, will go with Switch, easy as that.  It doesn't matter which will be the user Base of Switch when PS5 and Next XBox will come out; if you wanna play TLOU Part2 in full glory, or GTAVI, or Forza Horizon5, the Next Halo at native 4K/30-60 fps, the next GOW,  COD, RDR3, and all the best massive AAA 3rd party games on Consoles, you have only 2 options, which is Sony or Microsoft.

 No Switch revision will ever allow you to play the best 3rd party game experience; you will have the small-midium sized games, and even downgraded, and this will get worse year after year.  With this, I'm not saying that Switch is not offering its very unique and interesting game experience; I'm just saying that Nintendo has diverted to another "territory", and will barely affect Sony or MS.   It's all about PS5 and Scarlet, and if Sony and MS will deliver a great product and presentation, they will be successful like PS4 and 360, respectively.

Last edited by Nate4Drake - on 04 January 2019

”Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to change the world.”

Harriet Tubman.