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Forums - Sales Discussion - Global Hardware 8 December 2018 (Smash Week)

Nate4Drake said:
drinkandswim said:

If Nintendo can transition properly without fracturing their install base with a Pro Version. Switch will have a 70 million install base by the time next gen arrives. The technological leap for Microsoft from Xbox One to Xbox 4 is going to be minimal. I mean they are literally talking about ray tracing as the only improvement but still only offering 4k 30fps. Which is way below PC Capabilities. Switch in the meantime is using 20nm technology and there is already 7nm technology available for mobile devices. 20 nm to 7 nm is a much bigger technological leap than the next console generation leap. TV technology 4K wont be mainstream until 2020 which means that limits the upward limits as far as resolution goes. Now like I said in my initial argument maybe Sony or Microsoft have a hybrid that demolishes Switch, but if they just go Console against Switch they could be in trouble. The power increase from Xbox One X to Xbox 4 is going to be very minimal. Will it be enough reason for an upgrade?

And although we say overall Switch hasn't made an impact on PS4 Sales and Xbox One sales yet, they are still trending towards that. Keep in mind that Xbox One X (a major revision) Launched a year ago and Xbox One Sales are at best flat for 2018.

Market Share 2016        2017                      2018                  2016 to 2018 Market Share Changes

Hardware

PS4 65%                           49.3%                     45.0%                 - 20%

Xbox One 31%                18.8%                     18.5%                  -12.5%

Wii U 4.2%                       32.0% (NS)             36.5% (NS)         +32.3%

Software

PS4 64%                           59.9%                      56.8%                    -7.2%

Xbox One 29.4%             22.9%                      20.6%                     -8.8%

Wii U 7%                          17.2% (NS)              22.5% (NS)            +15.5%

 

Now you can blame it all you want on age or 3DS dropping from the market. However, I do feel Switch is making some impact that wont be fully felt until 2019 and 2020 upto the launch of the new systems. Also keep in mind that the Switch is priced at $299. The 3DS was at a $150 price point or less for the 2DS models. So Switch is priced as more of a console than a handheld (currently).

 

(Note 2018 Market Share %'s as of November 24th from VG Chartz Global numbers. 2016 and 2017 from VG Chartz Yearly Global Numbers.)

I'm so sorry to disappoint you, but Switch will never have a user base of 70M when PS5 or Next XBox will be released, I think you should revise your calculations; and even if this will MAGICALLY happen, it won't affect PS5 and Next XBox, 'cause both will be True Next Gen Home Consoles capable of massive AAA 3rd Party titles, while Switch or any Switch revision is just a portable console which can be connected to a TV.

 Then you say :""The technological leap for Microsoft from Xbox One to Xbox 4 is going to be minimal. I mean they are literally talking about ray tracing as the only improvement but still only offering 4k 30fps""

I have no idea which is the source where you are collecting your informations, but according to MS, XBox Anaconda will be an insane piece of Hardware, even much more powerful than X1X.

 People who want a Next Gen Home Console will buy XBox or Playstation, people who prefer a portable which can be attached to a TV, will go with Switch, easy as that.  It doesn't matter which will be the user Base of Switch when PS5 and Next XBox will come out; if you wanna play TLOU Part2 in full glory, or GTAVI, or Forza Horizon5, the Next Halo at native 4K/30-60 fps, the next GOW,  COD, RDR3, and all the best massive AAA 3rd party games on Consoles, you have only 2 options, which is Sony or Microsoft.

 No Switch revision will ever allow you to play the best 3rd party game experience; you will have the small-midium sized games, and even downgraded, and this will get worse year after year.  With this, I'm not saying that Switch is not offering its very unique and interesting game experience; I'm just saying that Nintendo has diverted to another "territory", and will barely affect Sony or MS.   It's all about PS5 and Scarlet, and if they Sony and MS will deliver a great product and presentation, they will be successful like PS4 and 360, respectively.

 

By March 2019 Switch will have an install base of approximately 37 million based on Nintendo Projections. Somehow you think selling another 33 million between April 2019 and December 2020 is a lot? The best 3rd Party Experience will and always will be PC. So console sales will come down to Exclusives. Which is why I said PS5 will still be successful but will have a smaller life time sales than PS4. Microsoft has already proven they have no traction in the market with flat sales and a major revision (Xbox One to Xbox One X).

Last edited by drinkandswim - on 04 January 2019

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drinkandswim said:

By March 2019 Switch will have an install base of approximately 37 million based on Nintendo Projections. Somehow you think selling another 33 million between April 2019 and December 2020 is a lot? The best 3rd Party Experience will and always will be PC. So console sales will come down to Exclusives. Which is why I said PS5 will still be successful but will have a smaller life time sales than PS4. Microsoft has already proven they have no traction in the market with flat sales and a major revision (Xbox One to Xbox One X).

You are saying a lot f strange things bro.

Especially that third party nonsense. Especially if using PC as your clutch.

Yes, PC will always have the best (and worst this is a part people conveniently ignore like every PC gamer has a high end rig) versions of Multiplatform games. But that means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things because the bulk of all those games gat the majority of their sales from consoles. Look at all of multiplatform games released simultaneously for consoles and PC. You will be hard pressed to find a single one where PC sales make up for more than 10% of the overall games sales.

As fr your PS5 and XB4 comments..... I am just going to continue ignoring them.



Intrinsic said:
drinkandswim said:

By March 2019 Switch will have an install base of approximately 37 million based on Nintendo Projections. Somehow you think selling another 33 million between April 2019 and December 2020 is a lot? The best 3rd Party Experience will and always will be PC. So console sales will come down to Exclusives. Which is why I said PS5 will still be successful but will have a smaller life time sales than PS4. Microsoft has already proven they have no traction in the market with flat sales and a major revision (Xbox One to Xbox One X).

You are saying a lot f strange things bro.

Especially that third party nonsense. Especially if using PC as your clutch.

Yes, PC will always have the best (and worst this is a part people conveniently ignore like every PC gamer has a high end rig) versions of Multiplatform games. But that means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things because the bulk of all those games gat the majority of their sales from consoles. Look at all of multiplatform games released simultaneously for consoles and PC. You will be hard pressed to find a single one where PC sales make up for more than 10% of the overall games sales.

As fr your PS5 and XB4 comments..... I am just going to continue ignoring them.

Listen, I am really sorry my prediction hurts your feelings. All it was is a prediction, and I could be wrong (and I clearly stated that). Maybe PS5 goes onto outsell the extremely successful PS4, and maybe Microsoft wins the next console war. But my prediction stands and you can ignore it all you want, and when it all plays out we will see who was right. If im wrong im wrong. I don't claim to be a psychic. I am making a prediction based on what I see and I made it clear it depends on what Sony and Microsoft bring to the market. 

 

P.S. there is nothing strange in what I put. I never said PC outsells Consoles. I said PC offers the best third party experience. 

Last edited by drinkandswim - on 04 January 2019

drinkandswim said:
Intrinsic said:

You are saying a lot f strange things bro.

Especially that third party nonsense. Especially if using PC as your clutch.

Yes, PC will always have the best (and worst this is a part people conveniently ignore like every PC gamer has a high end rig) versions of Multiplatform games. But that means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things because the bulk of all those games gat the majority of their sales from consoles. Look at all of multiplatform games released simultaneously for consoles and PC. You will be hard pressed to find a single one where PC sales make up for more than 10% of the overall games sales.

As fr your PS5 and XB4 comments..... I am just going to continue ignoring them.

Listen, I am really sorry my prediction hurts your feelings. All it was is a prediction, and I could be wrong (and I clearly stated that). Maybe PS5 goes onto outsell the extremely successful PS4, and maybe Microsoft wins the next console war. But my prediction stands and you can ignore it all you want, and when it all plays out we will see who was right. If im wrong im wrong. I don't claim to be a psychic. I am making a prediction based on what I see and I made it clear it depends on what Sony and Microsoft bring to the market. 

 

P.S. there is nothing strange in what I put. I never said PC outsells Consoles. I said PC offers the best third party experience. 

Notice I didnt mention a thing abut your prediction? No feelings hurt here. nly thing you said that I cared to address was with regards t what you said about exclusives and multiplatforms.

As for your predictions? I really couldnt care less which is why I ignored them. Feel free to predict whatever. You may very well be right.

Again... it doesnt matter if PC offers the best third party experience when less than 10% of the people that buy the game buy it on the PC. Lets put this in perspective. Say COD sells a total of 15M. And 1.5M of those people are on PC, who do you think activision cares about more? The 10% that buys their game and can play it the best way possible? or the 90% that will play it on consoles.

More so..... it has always been known that PCs run everything better, has that ever stopped consoles from selling?



DonFerrari said:
drinkandswim said:

I never said anything about a PS5/X2 Portable Equivalent. I said Nintendo Switch needs to release a Pro that can offer Xbox One/PS4 graphics by the time the Next Gen arrives on the market in order to stay relevant, and get some third party ports. 

Switch is quite "near" X1/PS4 graphics. But by next gen time that won't be enough to get ports.

X1 is like 1,2 TF and next gen on 12-15TF level (less than that would be low considering X1X already cross 6TF), I know TF isn't all but just as generic measuring the gap we can stay on it. So if Switch Pro or Switch 2 only get inside 1,2-1,6 TF level of processing power/graphics it won't receive AAA 3rd party (not that it even needs, AA and Indies would be enough to fill the gaps on Nintendo releasing schedule).

More important than reaching near X1 or PS4 level of graphic would be similar tech of PS5 and X2, because not using similar tech (even if a lot less powered) would be worse on the scalability and porting than the pure power gap.

As long as PS4 and XBO are getting ports, Switch will also get ports as the extra cost is more than outweighted by the extra sales. If the Next-Gen consoles release late next year, it would mean that support is guaranteed until at least 2023, at which point the Switch would be over 6 years old and sales should start to drop anyway by then. I'm expecting a successor for 2024-2025 anyway, so it wouldn't matter much in any which way.



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drinkandswim said:
Intrinsic said:

If you really believe this...........

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/apple-says-its-new-ipad-is-as-powerful-as-xbox-one/1100-6462892/

 

I haven't benchmarked it myself. I am going by what Apple is saying and Phil Spencer himself hasn't shot it down actually complimented the comparison. 

That would require quite the jump in performance. Even the upcoming Snapdragon 8cx only reaches about Switch GPU power (and a Tegra X1 running at full speed still has a 30% faster GPU than that!)

More probably, it's duable to a technicality: XBO calculates FP16 (half precision) at the same speed as FP32 ("full" precision), while mobile chips can calculate those at twice the speed. So in FP16, they could catch up to XBO in GFLOPS due to this. But videogames need FP32 most of the time, so an A12 Bionic wouldn't be able to handle the graphics in those games in any way.



Bofferbrauer2 said:
drinkandswim said:

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/apple-says-its-new-ipad-is-as-powerful-as-xbox-one/1100-6462892/

 

I haven't benchmarked it myself. I am going by what Apple is saying and Phil Spencer himself hasn't shot it down actually complimented the comparison. 

That would require quite the jump in performance. Even the upcoming Snapdragon 8cx only reaches about Switch GPU power (and a Tegra X1 running at full speed still has a 30% faster GPU than that!)

More probably, it's duable to a technicality: XBO calculates FP16 (half precision) at the same speed as FP32 ("full" precision), while mobile chips can calculate those at twice the speed. So in FP16, they could catch up to XBO in GFLOPS due to this. But videogames need FP32 most of the time, so an A12 Bionic wouldn't be able to handle the graphics in those games in any way.

To me its just interesting how much Mobile is closing the gap. December should be a great month for Nintendo. Im looking forward to gaming in 2019.



Why are these all out of order suddenly?

http://www.vgchartz.com/games/games.php?console=NS



drinkandswim said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

That would require quite the jump in performance. Even the upcoming Snapdragon 8cx only reaches about Switch GPU power (and a Tegra X1 running at full speed still has a 30% faster GPU than that!)

More probably, it's duable to a technicality: XBO calculates FP16 (half precision) at the same speed as FP32 ("full" precision), while mobile chips can calculate those at twice the speed. So in FP16, they could catch up to XBO in GFLOPS due to this. But videogames need FP32 most of the time, so an A12 Bionic wouldn't be able to handle the graphics in those games in any way.

To me its just interesting how much Mobile is closing the gap. December should be a great month for Nintendo. Im looking forward to gaming in 2019.

It's not closing the gap.

Even in 7nm, anything close to XBO power in such a small casing like a tablet would totally overheat and shut down in minutes, if not seconds. It still needs active cooling to achieve that, something tablets normally do not have.

A Ryzen 5 2500U found in fairly thin Laptops comes close to XBO power, a 2700U would actually surpass it. But in both cases, that's peak power, and I don't think they can keep those GPU boosts over prolonged times even though they have a 15W TDP, about 3 times what tablets have. In other words, while the A12 could reach XBO power (and, like I said, even then probably just on a technicality), there's no way it could hold that much power.



According to insiders PS4 is tracking below 1M for December, but you want us to believe it already sold more than a third of that in the first week? Lol.



"The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must" - Thoukydides