Forums - General Discussion - ‘Rape Culture’ Is A MYTH | Change My Mind

Pemalite said:
DrDoomz said:

An accused child molester should not be allowed near his children for example til he is able to clear his name and we know for a fact the children are safe, for example.

Prevention is not punishment. Of course, this is where it gets a bit blurry as the need for a person to clear oneself should be directly related to the veracity of the proof.

Burden of proof exists for a reason.
The legal system generally works on that premise in most civilized nations around the globe.

You make a claim (Aka. Accusation) then you need to back it up with evidence, that is how it should work.

Otherwise, nothing is stopping me from accusing everyone in this thread of such a crime and everyone in this thread loosing access to their children, regardless of how incorrect my accusation is.

Which is why I said “The need for a person to clear oneself should be directly related to the veracity of the proof”. Meaning absurd accusations not founded in any kind of evidence should not be used as a reason to perform preventive measures that negatively impact the life of the accused in a significant way. The responsibility of determining this risk and acting upon it already falls on law enforcement.



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DonFerrari said:
Qwark said:

1. Yeah I did not get that one either especially since there are a million way to prevent any woman from getting a Child. 

Same for abortion, getting pregnant by accident is pretty impressive these days to begin with, but for the sake of argument lets say you are that 1 or 2% of people that got pregnant while using condoms or/and the pill etc. You still got 20 weeks to legaly abort your foetus. If you don't act within that time than bitching about it has little to nothing to do with freedom, but more with the right to being neglectful without concequence, the world doesn't and will never work like that. 

1 - And pregnancy not being a disease nor threatening anyone's life to equate the fetus to a leech or equate not donating your kidney.

About abortion, I'm totally against (but wouldn't forbid through government coercion). When I think about accidental pregnancy I can only imagine someone walking and slipping in a skate, unfortunately landing on a men lap and immediate pregnancy. Like it can't be accident when the sole outcome of sex can only be pregnancy. So doesn't matter how many precautions you take, you must be willing to accept the consequences. You can't abort AIDS, but people want a world as free of consequence as possible.

If a woman decides to create a life with a man, then decides to abort that life, leaving him with nothing, he demands justice, and society tells him to wake up and realize it's not about his wants and needs and that forcing her to carry the unborn, would be allowing it to leech off of her, which would be unfair, regardless of the initial consent.

If a woman decides to marry a man, then decides to divorce him, if he decides to leave her with nothing, she demands justice, and society tells her she certainly should be entitled to whatever portion of his wealth that maintains her wants and needs, which wouldn't be leeching off of him, and would be fair, regardless of the initial consent.

So in laypeople's terms, heads we win, tales you lose? Since when did coins start having the queens head on both sides? Before or after #equality?



SecondWar said:
TheBird said:
Well it is a myth in the modern civilized world. The fact that people think rape culture exists in civilized society is just bothersome.

Yep, knew you'd be here. Hi, I'm that 'disgusting human being' from the other thead. You know, the who one who agrees with the underlying principle of MeToo.

Again, your attitude amazes me, but is no longer surprising me. So reports of rape are bothersome to you? Well, I think you need to re-assess your world view, as by your accounts we're not in a civilized world.

Yeah not surprised you completely ignored the rest of my post, and then took my words completely out of context. I said "The fact that people think rape culture exists is bothersome", not that people reporting being rape is bothersome. 

And here is the rest of my post just incase you forgot how to read past the first line "Completely taking the attention away from undeveloped places like the middle east where women and children are just sex objects to their male overlords. But if you want to fight for human rights in the middle east they will kill you, so I understand why they would avoid those places."

 

Rape culture only exists in the 3rd world, it is an absolute joke to think it exists in the west. This countries paranoia is taking attention away from the real problem in the world, and feminists rather ignore it because its "racist" and "politically incorrect" to say rape culture exists in these 3rd world countries. 

 

Also don't bother posting on this thread if you're not going to add to it, you made that post specifically to attack me, and not add to the discussion. 



Even if there was a rape culture it'd be infinitesimally small, and limited to mostly asshole judges like the one that didn't give Brock Turner even a year in jail.

What the girl in the beginning is saying is rape culture is actually the presumption of innocence. She likely didn't have any evidence to present against her attacker, so the school didn't and shouldn't do anything. You can't just accuse someone of a crime only matched by murder in severity and expect people to believe you with no evidence.

People in America loath rapists, the difference in how people go about it is the difference between a reaction and a desire for truth. One group assumes guilt and wants the punishment to come immediately. The other group offers the presumption of innocence while an investigation is conducted, and will usually err on what the investigation finds.

In the case of Ford (since Crowder's video brought it up), it was a 35+ year old case with no evidence, no corroboration by those she claimed were at the party, and no specifics about the party (including how she got there or left, where it was, what day it was, etc). She took a polygraph, but 1) she's a psychiatrist, pretty sure she knows how to beat it; and 2) she was outted by an ex for having helped a friend pass a polygraph in the past (rendering some of her testimony as potential perjury). No further investigation was taken because there just isn't anything to investigate, and it was clear from how long Feinstein sat on the accusation that the intent was to present it in the eleventh hour to push the confirmation beyond the midterms.

It sucks that Ford didn't get a real trial since considering it was a party with drinking she was likely to have been assaulted by somebody, but misidentified them (misidentification makes up roughly 70% of exonerations). She'll never know now because she waited over three decades, and now #metoo is taken less seriously because Feinstein clearly used it as a political cudgel.

Last edited by Azuren - on 15 October 2018

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The problem with many arguments about 'rape' and the burden of proof being on the victim is that....short of having the foresight to record it or coaxing a confession out of the rapist, there's virtually no proof of rape. It can't exist. This burden you put on the victim is nearly impossible to fulfil because rape is unlike other forms of abuse.

When you're assaulted on the street, there could be bruises or cuts or abrasions. When you're abused on the street you can call for help and scream 'I'm being attacked'. When you're hurt in that way, there is physical evidence that it happens.

When it comes to rape, even the more egregious examples often take place alone, or in a party while drunk, or with someone you thought loved you. You might not even know that you're being taken advantage of until later and even the strongest of men and women don't want the vulnerability that comes with yelling for help while being raped. Oftentimes the one being abused is not under their own volition.

And unless the rapist is fucking you with a cheese grater or forcing a carrot into you, the chances of there being physical evidence of rape is pretty slim. Sure, you can get a rape kit and prove they ejaculated inside you, but that's really all it can truly prove. Even consensual sex often results in some tissue damage (Some people like it rough; this is just a fact of a loving relationship.)

So what do you propose? In a world full of people like you who put all the burden of proof on the victims and are clearly eager to discredit them, what do you propose is adequate proof of rape? What action do you suggest that can prove rape while also not exposing the victims to senseless and extraneous levels of scrutinization. This isn't like theft or murder or assault, where there's clearly defined proof, so what is it you propose?

I genuinely want to hear an answer, because all I see is a bunch of [redacted] who don't understand consent lashing out because they fear being accused of rape and thus trying to discredit victims with flawed, unfair rhetoric.

So I ask again: If the burden of proof is exclusively on the victim, what do you propose as a reasonable, realistic piece of evidence to back up their claims? What do you suggest doing in the event of rape that would fulfil all your unreasonable demands. You do that, and I'll easily show you a dozen examples of why it doesn't work, why many rapes still go unreported, and why even the reported ones are still unprosecuted.

Don't be a part of the problem by perpetuating the status quo, be a part of the solution by helping to find and enact positive change.



I got it all, baby! 

PS4, Switch, WiiU, XBO, PC
Vita, 3DS, Android

Top 6 this generation: 
Bloodborne, Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, God of War, The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Dark Souls III, Red Dead Redemption II

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Runa216 said:
The problem with many arguments about 'rape' and the burden of proof being on the victim is that....short of having the foresight to record it or coaxing a confession out of the rapist, there's virtually no proof of rape. It can't exist. This burden you put on the victim is nearly impossible to fulfil because rape is unlike other forms of abuse.

When you're assaulted on the street, there could be bruises or cuts or abrasions. When you're abused on the street you can call for help and scream 'I'm being attacked'. When you're hurt in that way, there is physical evidence that it happens.

When it comes to rape, even the more egregious examples often take place alone, or in a party while drunk, 1. or with someone you thought loved you. You might not even know that you're being taken advantage of until later and even the strongest of men and women don't want the vulnerability that comes with yelling for help while being raped. Oftentimes the one being abused is not under their own volition.

And unless the rapist is fucking you with a cheese grater or forcing a carrot into you, the chances of there being physical evidence of rape is pretty slim. Sure, you can get a rape kit and prove they ejaculated inside you, but that's really all it can truly prove. Even consensual sex often results in some tissue damage (Some people like it rough; this is just a fact of a loving relationship.)

  1. So what do you propose? In a world full of people like you who put all the burden of proof on the victims and are clearly eager to discredit them, what do you propose is adequate proof of rape? What action do you suggest that can prove rape while also not exposing the victims to senseless and extraneous levels of scrutinization. This isn't like theft or murder or assault, where there's clearly defined proof, so what is it you propose? 

I genuinely want to hear an answer, because all I see is a bunch of [redacted] who don't understand consent lashing out because they fear being accused of rape and thus trying to discredit victims with flawed, unfair rhetoric.

So I ask again: If the burden of proof is exclusively on the victim, what do you propose as a reasonable, realistic piece of evidence to back up their claims? What do you suggest doing in the event of rape that would fulfil all your unreasonable demands. You do that, and I'll easily show you a dozen examples of why it doesn't work, why many rapes still go unreported, and why even the reported ones are still unprosecuted.

Don't be a part of the problem by perpetuating the status quo, be a part of the solution by helping to find and enact positive change.

1. That's not rape and not illegal since the sexual acts where consensual at the time. 

2.Whilst unsexy and not private as fuck the best way to definitely prove consent is give digital consent  before having sex trough a heavily encryptie digi-d or a governments account. Any sexual act in which this consent was not given is rape and a DNA  test can easily prove that. 

Guilty by accusation isn't a sollution just a new problem. Every sexual act leaves some sort of DNA, so that should be found at the very least. 



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

TheBird said:
SecondWar said:

Yep, knew you'd be here. Hi, I'm that 'disgusting human being' from the other thead. You know, the who one who agrees with the underlying principle of MeToo.

Again, your attitude amazes me, but is no longer surprising me. So reports of rape are bothersome to you? Well, I think you need to re-assess your world view, as by your accounts we're not in a civilized world.

Yeah not surprised you completely ignored the rest of my post, and then took my words completely out of context. I said "The fact that people think rape culture exists is bothersome", not that people reporting being rape is bothersome. 

And here is the rest of my post just incase you forgot how to read past the first line "Completely taking the attention away from undeveloped places like the middle east where women and children are just sex objects to their male overlords. But if you want to fight for human rights in the middle east they will kill you, so I understand why they would avoid those places."

Rape culture only exists in the 3rd world, it is an absolute joke to think it exists in the west. This countries paranoia is taking attention away from the real problem in the world, and feminists rather ignore it because its "racist" and "politically incorrect" to say rape culture exists in these 3rd world countries. 

Also don't bother posting on this thread if you're not going to add to it, you made that post specifically to attack me, and not add to the discussion. 

On reflection, I did twist that a bit, but still the way it read left me amazed by apparent dismissiveness of your attitude.

My point was that I think you are living in a bubble with regards to the topic. Have you seen the recent video of a french woman confronting someone who was harassing her, and getting punched for her efforts due to the man's apparent indignation at being called out, or the woman walking through New York video? Having never visted the Middle East, I can't properly compare the situation to there but there are definitely people in the West who behave in a way that correlates with what some people have defined as 'rape culture'.

Edited: Trying to tone it down since the mods have been on to us both.

Last edited by SecondWar - on 15 October 2018

Qwark said:

1. That's not rape and not illegal since the sexual acts where consensual at the time. 

2.Whilst unsexy and not private as fuck the best way to definitely prove consent is give digital consent  before having sex trough a heavily encryptie digi-d or a governments account. Any sexual act in which this consent was not given is rape and a DNA  test can easily prove that. 

Guilty by accusation isn't a sollution just a new problem. Every sexual act leaves some sort of DNA, so that should be found at the very least. 

You've got to be kidding me. 

You know South Park mocked this very idea, right? 



I got it all, baby! 

PS4, Switch, WiiU, XBO, PC
Vita, 3DS, Android

Top 6 this generation: 
Bloodborne, Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, God of War, The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Dark Souls III, Red Dead Redemption II

Runa216 said:
The problem with many arguments about 'rape' and the burden of proof being on the victim is that....short of having the foresight to record it or coaxing a confession out of the rapist, there's virtually no proof of rape. It can't exist. This burden you put on the victim is nearly impossible to fulfil because rape is unlike other forms of abuse.

When you're assaulted on the street, there could be bruises or cuts or abrasions. When you're abused on the street you can call for help and scream 'I'm being attacked'. When you're hurt in that way, there is physical evidence that it happens.

When it comes to rape, even the more egregious examples often take place alone, or in a party while drunk, or with someone you thought loved you. You might not even know that you're being taken advantage of until later and even the strongest of men and women don't want the vulnerability that comes with yelling for help while being raped. Oftentimes the one being abused is not under their own volition.

And unless the rapist is fucking you with a cheese grater or forcing a carrot into you, the chances of there being physical evidence of rape is pretty slim. Sure, you can get a rape kit and prove they ejaculated inside you, but that's really all it can truly prove. Even consensual sex often results in some tissue damage (Some people like it rough; this is just a fact of a loving relationship.)

So what do you propose? In a world full of people like you who put all the burden of proof on the victims and are clearly eager to discredit them, what do you propose is adequate proof of rape? What action do you suggest that can prove rape while also not exposing the victims to senseless and extraneous levels of scrutinization. This isn't like theft or murder or assault, where there's clearly defined proof, so what is it you propose?

I genuinely want to hear an answer, because all I see is a bunch of [redacted] who don't understand consent lashing out because they fear being accused of rape and thus trying to discredit victims with flawed, unfair rhetoric.

So I ask again: If the burden of proof is exclusively on the victim, what do you propose as a reasonable, realistic piece of evidence to back up their claims? What do you suggest doing in the event of rape that would fulfil all your unreasonable demands. You do that, and I'll easily show you a dozen examples of why it doesn't work, why many rapes still go unreported, and why even the reported ones are still unprosecuted.

Don't be a p problem by perpetuating the status quo, be a part of the solution by helping to find and enact positive change.

Don’t know what you want ppl to say here man. No one is saying they have all the answers here. And no one is denying that sexual harassment is hard to prove. If you acknowledge that this is indeed a difficult problem that not even our current law enforcement (who is actually in the front lines trying to solve it) has a clear answer to, why even ask ppl (who aren’t in this field) likely won’t have as much experience in it to provide tangible solutions? The system isn’t perfect. The guilty do get away more often than not. But better the guilty get away than the innocent punished. That is why the system is so strict on burden of proof. What is your alternative?

And what exactly is the problem with perpetuating the status quo? What status quo do you mean? Do you mean the status quo of letting law enforcement do their job and reserving judgement until someone is proven guilty first before drawing conclusions and acting on it? I certainly hope that’s not the problem you mean.

My solution? I don’t have a great one really. But maybe throw more money into law enforcement and forensic research? More money into victim protection, better privacy protection laws and better counseling and support to help encourage victims to step forward? If the answer was easy, then law enforcement would have gotten a better solution nailed down way sooner than anyone in a gaming sales forum would.

Burden of proof and innocent until proven guilty can be frustrating sometimes, sure. Guilty ppl getting away due to lack of evidence or technicalities can make one lose faith in our system. But it is the best system that we can figure out right now. For no matter how bad it can get, the alternative is much worse.

Edit. Not sure why some portions of my reply has small font. Not intentional. Edit 2. Hey it fixed itself somehow...



Qwark said:
Runa216 said:
The problem with many arguments about 'rape' and the burden of proof being on the victim is that....short of having the foresight to record it or coaxing a confession out of the rapist, there's virtually no proof of rape. It can't exist. This burden you put on the victim is nearly impossible to fulfil because rape is unlike other forms of abuse.

When you're assaulted on the street, there could be bruises or cuts or abrasions. When you're abused on the street you can call for help and scream 'I'm being attacked'. When you're hurt in that way, there is physical evidence that it happens.

When it comes to rape, even the more egregious examples often take place alone, or in a party while drunk, 1. or with someone you thought loved you. You might not even know that you're being taken advantage of until later and even the strongest of men and women don't want the vulnerability that comes with yelling for help while being raped. Oftentimes the one being abused is not under their own volition.

And unless the rapist is fucking you with a cheese grater or forcing a carrot into you, the chances of there being physical evidence of rape is pretty slim. Sure, you can get a rape kit and prove they ejaculated inside you, but that's really all it can truly prove. Even consensual sex often results in some tissue damage (Some people like it rough; this is just a fact of a loving relationship.)

  1. So what do you propose? In a world full of people like you who put all the burden of proof on the victims and are clearly eager to discredit them, what do you propose is adequate proof of rape? What action do you suggest that can prove rape while also not exposing the victims to senseless and extraneous levels of scrutinization. This isn't like theft or murder or assault, where there's clearly defined proof, so what is it you propose? 

I genuinely want to hear an answer, because all I see is a bunch of [redacted] who don't understand consent lashing out because they fear being accused of rape and thus trying to discredit victims with flawed, unfair rhetoric.

So I ask again: If the burden of proof is exclusively on the victim, what do you propose as a reasonable, realistic piece of evidence to back up their claims? What do you suggest doing in the event of rape that would fulfil all your unreasonable demands. You do that, and I'll easily show you a dozen examples of why it doesn't work, why many rapes still go unreported, and why even the reported ones are still unprosecuted.

Don't be a part of the problem by perpetuating the status quo, be a part of the solution by helping to find and enact positive change.

1. That's not rape and not illegal since the sexual acts where consensual at the time. 

2.Whilst unsexy and not private as fuck the best way to definitely prove consent is give digital consent  before having sex trough a heavily encryptie digi-d or a governments account. Any sexual act in which this consent was not given is rape and a DNA  test can easily prove that. 

Guilty by accusation isn't a sollution just a new problem. Every sexual act leaves some sort of DNA, so that should be found at the very least. 

I agree with this first part. You can't retroactively rescind your consent.



Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

Check out my Twitch Channel!:

www.twitch.tv/AzurenGames