By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump's Personal Lawyer And Campaign Manager Both Going To Prison

Machiavellian said:
NightlyPoe said:

You completely missed my point.  Could the money have been paid through the campaign legally?  If not, then it can't be considered a campaign donation.  What I'm basically saying is that it can't be illegal both ways.  Either the legal way to handle it was off the books or on the books.  It can't be neither.

No I do not get your first point. He paid money to Daniel from Trump organization and did not report it.   He accepted payment for Karen from AMI which is another contribution he did not report.  We will see if he had knowledge it was reportable but choose not to in order to conceal the payments.

While I disagree with NightlyPoe on a lot of things, I have to agree with him that you have completely failed to answer the hypothetical question he's asked you twice now and requested an answer for.  You also haven't explicitly refused to answer and given a reason for doing so.  You've just ignored it even though NightlyPoe made it clear that the point his question was illustrating was a central part of the point he was trying to make. 

Hypothetically, it could be that you think the payment should be illegal both ways, and then his question would be irrelevant, but you haven't said that either.  (If you did say this I would expect you to justify it.) 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Around the Network

For my own part, while I agree with NightlyPoe's sentiment that campaign money ought not be used for paying hush money to mistresses, I do think that Machiavellian is completely right that the payments here were clearly motivated by and pursuant to the ongoing campaign and therefore, if one side of his dichotomy is is correct, then it is the one saying it should be reported. I also think this is supported by the clear fact that it would be information relevant to the decision process of many conscientious voters. Repulsed though NightlyPoe and I am by the idea, the remedy is not for candidates to use personal money in secret for campaign reasons, but rather for the people to not give campaign donations to candidates with a bunch of talkative mistresses waiting to come out of the woodwork.

Last edited by Final-Fan - on 27 August 2018

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

The thing about hush money is that if you declare what you had used the money for it kind of defeats the purpose of hush money.  



EricHiggin said:

It's not up to me to convince you of what is right and wrong, I can only show you the door, your the one who has to walk through it. There is no proper answer to this question you pose, considering any individual who follows a political path, is corrupt enough that they shouldn't be given this type of power ever. Yet people go ahead and do it anyway. Trump isn't perfect like the rest of us, but his actions, and not so much his words, lead many to believe he's less corrupt than the other choices that were given, so short of the people refusing to vote, I don't see the problem. 

For some reason people keep agreeing with me, yet what they are agreeing to is nothing related to what I have said. Which makes me realize why they don't understand Trump. Apparently he touched Stormy and she's far from ash, she's being praised.

Ok, so your answer is that everyone is corrupt and no matter how many times Trump will lie about anything whether big or small you believe his actions so far shows he is legit.  Yeah that sounds like a cop out.  I support this corrupt person because I believe everyone else is corrupt.  I am not sure what actions make you believe Trump is somehow more honest then his years of basic lying, cheating and incompetence but that part I will not argue.  

My point is that it seems you just excuse everything.  Its one thing for someone to be wrong, to make mistakes, its another for people to be tolerant if that person constantly does something wrong and just accept it.

Did Stormy lose her husband during this whole thing.  Yeah, maybe you see she turned out ok but it appears to me she lost something and probably at the end of this will lose more for dealing with Trump.



Final-Fan said:
Machiavellian said:

No I do not get your first point. He paid money to Daniel from Trump organization and did not report it.   He accepted payment for Karen from AMI which is another contribution he did not report.  We will see if he had knowledge it was reportable but choose not to in order to conceal the payments.

While I disagree with NightlyPoe on a lot of things, I have to agree with him that you have completely failed to answer the hypothetical question he's asked you twice now and requested an answer for.  You also haven't explicitly refused to answer and given a reason for doing so.  You've just ignored it even though NightlyPoe made it clear that the point his question was illustrating was a central part of the point he was trying to make. 

Hypothetically, it could be that you think the payment should be illegal both ways, and then his question would be irrelevant, but you haven't said that either.  (If you did say this I would expect you to justify it.) 

Ahhh, ok, I see yours and his point.  No, I do not believe paying hush money is illegal.  What I have been arguing is if he was advised that the payment violated campaign finance laws and did it anyway then he choose to ignore them, felt that he could get away with it and believe those laws do not apply to him.  I do not care if Trump paid hush money to any of these woman.  My point is did he do so knowing that he was violating these laws.  There appear to be evidence that at least he understood that these payments were needed because they pose a risk to the campaign.  



Around the Network
NightlyPoe said:
Machiavellian said:

No I do not get your first point. He paid money to Daniel from Trump organization and did not report it.   He accepted payment for Karen from AMI which is another contribution he did not report.  We will see if he had knowledge it was reportable but choose not to in order to conceal the payments.

For your second point, you tell me anyone who has pleaded guilty with a lawyer, they paid money for pleading to any crime they did not do.  You forget he pleaded to 8 counts not just the finance charge.  All the other charges would see him in jail for the rest of his life anyway.

I get your point.  You're the one not addressing mine.

You seriously don't think that paid lawyers never advise their clients to take the deal?  Dude it happens all the time.  Lawyers are risk-adverse creatures in general.  Happened to my former brother-in-law in fact.

Ok, I can agree that a lawyer would take whatever is the lesser of the charges for his client if they are guilty.  I am still not sure what part here is a lesser crime.  Yes, he was offered a plea deal for admitting guilt for reduced sentence.  We will have to see exactly how that plays out if this ever goes any further than Cohen going to jail.



Machiavellian said:
EricHiggin said:

It's not up to me to convince you of what is right and wrong, I can only show you the door, your the one who has to walk through it. There is no proper answer to this question you pose, considering any individual who follows a political path, is corrupt enough that they shouldn't be given this type of power ever. Yet people go ahead and do it anyway. Trump isn't perfect like the rest of us, but his actions, and not so much his words, lead many to believe he's less corrupt than the other choices that were given, so short of the people refusing to vote, I don't see the problem. 

For some reason people keep agreeing with me, yet what they are agreeing to is nothing related to what I have said. Which makes me realize why they don't understand Trump. Apparently he touched Stormy and she's far from ash, she's being praised.

Ok, so your answer is that everyone is corrupt and no matter how many times Trump will lie about anything whether big or small you believe his actions so far shows he is legit.  Yeah that sounds like a cop out.  I support this corrupt person because I believe everyone else is corrupt.  I am not sure what actions make you believe Trump is somehow more honest then his years of basic lying, cheating and incompetence but that part I will not argue.  

My point is that it seems you just excuse everything.  Its one thing for someone to be wrong, to make mistakes, its another for people to be tolerant if that person constantly does something wrong and just accept it.

Did Stormy lose her husband during this whole thing.  Yeah, maybe you see she turned out ok but it appears to me she lost something and probably at the end of this will lose more for dealing with Trump.

No, my answer was "considering any individual who follows a political path, is corrupt enough that they shouldn't be given this type of power ever." I never said anything about always believing Trump, your assuming that. I also never said I supported him. You assume because I'm indirectly taking his side in this case, that I'm solely on his side, when I just explained how the situation would play out based on the facts available.

Your point is more of a blunt edge. This is one topic about one situation, and yet I'm somehow defending everything Trump has ever done? I'm not a coloring book, but if I was, your supposed to stay inside the edges, not color the entire page.

So you say it's Trump's own fault for screwing around with Stormy, and he should face any consequences that arise because of that, but Stormy is solely a victim and isn't responsible at all for her side of the poor decisions, and everyone should feel sorry for her? Apparently her husband doesn't have a lot of good to say about her aside from just the Trump fling. Is she not the one who came forward in the first place? It's Trump's fault she didn't think things through back then and more recently?



NightlyPoe said:
Final-Fan said:

I presume you said that about the CIA because their mission is supposed to be primarily abroad.  Suppose there was a police investigation Trump was afraid of, and he ordered the FBI to go after all the officers involved? 

You'd have to define "go after".  I mean, he's on Twitter every five minutes demanding this person or that to be investigated.

I don't think he follows through on those tweets.  "Go after" would mean directing them (FBI) to put major resources into digging through their (police) entire lives looking for any little thing to nail them on for the explicit purpose of crippling the investigation against himself, due to the distraction if nothing else. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

NightlyPoe said:
Final-Fan said:

I don't think he follows through on those tweets.  "Go after" would mean directing them (FBI) to put major resources into digging through their (police) entire lives looking for any little thing to nail them on for the explicit purpose of crippling the investigation against himself, due to the distraction if nothing else. 

Can't say I know the law on that and what the limits are, so I won't comment further.  But active policing is something Congress does have a say in and that the Constitution has limits on.  So it wouldn't fall under the same umbrella.  It's not the same as prosecutorial discretion.

If we're talking about prosecutorial discretion, aren't we in the gray area between the executive and judicial branches?  I imagine that the president's powers aren't unfettered there either.  I believe people have gotten in trouble for abusing prosecutorial discretion.

I had thought you were talking about what might be called "investigatorial discretion", i.e. "don't investigate this guy", which is close to a mirror equivalent to "investigate the hell out of these guys", my hypothetical. 

For that matter, the subject of the investigation (the "active policing" you mentioned) isn't directly relevant, but the president's actions would indirectly affect it.  I'm posting in a hurry, but I'm not convinced at a glance that an indirect effect of this nature would run afoul of the limits you suggest.  Maybe, though. 

Last edited by Final-Fan - on 28 August 2018

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

SpokenTruth said:
NightlyPoe said:

You completely missed my point.  Could the money have been paid through the campaign legally?  If not, then it can't be considered a campaign donation.  What I'm basically saying is that it can't be illegal both ways.  Either the legal way to handle it was off the books or on the books.  It can't be neither.

Could the payment have been done without violating campaign finance laws?  Probably not.  Even if he declared the payment, it is still above the amount allowed per quarter.  It's a lower offense so it would have been better for him to do so but he didn't.  But, as noted before, declaring it would defeat the point of it being "hush money".

The best way for him to have handled this whole mess wold have been to pay the hush money years ago (before announcing his candidacy) or simply ignored it altogether and never paid at all.  His supporters don't seem to give a damn anyway so he paid out for nothing and it is getting him in trouble.

After a year and a half of nothing shaking his campaign, why in the world did they think they had to hush up those women 1 month before the election?

Isn't the reason we are here is a direct result of Trump actions.  One of the things I continue to state is that because of Trump's inexperience in politics and his willingness to not care about the laws put into place over his office has made political blunders left and right.  Even the Comey firing could have been done when he was elected, not after he made a request for Comey to let things slide.  Next, he could have stuck with the story Sessions presented and the document from Rosenstein giving the green light to fire Comey but he had to go on national TV and admit it was over the Russian investigation (really, how stupid can you be).  The investigation was going nowhere under Comey because it was totally under funded.  If he listen to his daughter and Son in Law, this whole thing would have been over long ago.

The hush money payment also looks like another example where Trump was given information that this would be a violation and he decided to go for it.  Trump doesn't respect the laws that govern his office and since he loves to push the boundaries, people have to accept that he will trip over one of them and find himself  in legal jeopardy.  The blame goes to the man making the decisions not the reactions as the results.