Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Does Sun and Moon hold the 'right steps' for the 2019 'more core' Pokemon game?

burninmylight said:

1. *really long explanation on how Alolan Rattata and Yungoos are super interesting*

2. Because if you still  have to have at least one member of your team capable of learning Surf/Strength/Fly/Odor Sleuth/Horseshoe, then you still need HM slaves. No more HM slaves.

3. Still with you on this. All I'm saying is that I became desensitized after playing games that are just as bad if not worse. That doesn't excuse these games though.

4. Let me preface this by reminding you that I am once again speaking from the standpoint of a competitive player. However, I in no way intend to come across as, "Lol, filthy casual." Your opinions and playstyle are just as valid as mine.

With that said, everything you have typed is either objectively wrong (from the standpoint of how they affect a battle) or can also be said about megas. Let me brake it down piece by piece.

 The fact that not every Pokémon gets one might be a little 'unfair', sure, but it also makes them slightly more predictable, which is good - and they still involve strategy.

And using Z-Moves very much involve strategy too. Deciding which Z-crystal to use, which Pokemon to put the crystal on, and when to use it in the match? That is left up to random, dumb luck in the hands of a master, sir. The same with Mega Evolution. Gen 6 Gengar: "Not going to evolve it now so it can come in on my opponent's Earthquake." Pinsir: "Not going to evolve it now so my opponent can't bring in his Gengar, because Levitate won't protect it from EQ due to Mold Breaker." Period: Hmm, should I give the Mega stone to Tyranitar or Blaziken, and how long should I keep my opponent trying to figure out which one has it?"

Once you mega evolve a Pokémon, that's it, it's mega evolved, but you still have to battle. You still have to use your regular moves and put your abilities to good use, and if your opponent can counterplay the mega, then it's fair game.

Same with Z-Moves. Once you use it, that's it for the entire battle. Unlike Mega mon, you have one turn to get it right. Then you still have to use your regular moves and put your abilities to good use, and your opponent can counterplay the Z-move with good prediction. I've brought in Incineroar plenty of times on a predicted Let's Snuggle Forever on my opponent's Mimikyu, then burned the crap out of it with Will-o-Wisp, or brought in my own Hakamo'o to counter my opponents Clangorous Soulblaze. With both Z-moves and Megas, you learn counter strategies through experience.

It's not like a mega evolved Pokémon would always beat a non-mega evolved one either, they were never that broken, and most of them always had one or two weaknesses (not talking exclusively about type matchup kind of weaknesses by the way). Yes, some were bullcrap like Kangaskhan or Mawile or whatever, but that could just be fixed with a thing called "balance patches" which I don't think Game Freak knows about.

Uh, yes they were that freaking broken. Do you ever play competitively online? In Gen 6, Kangaskhan was on every other team, and Mawile was on every third. When these things are allowed to switch in freely, something on the other team is guaranteed to die. They overcentralized the meta game like an mf'er. And I'll tell you the same thing I tell everyone who uses the "one or two weaknesses" argument: if you can only name one or two specific Pokemon to counter another Pokemon, then all you're really doing is proving how damn broken that Pokemon really is. "Greninja isn't overpowered, you just need to bring an Electrode or Porygon2 w/ Eviolite!" Mega Salamence isn't OP, you just need a Choice Scarf Jynx!"

Like I said before, a one-time nuke (that can be mitigated or avoided altogether) is better than a constant nuke. And you kinda undermined yourself with the bit about GameFreak not discovering what a balance patch is. If you know it'll never happen, why mention it?

Z-moves, they're the total opposite. You can never see them coming, and once they come, that's it, there's nothing you can do about it because it's a one-time nuke. Every single time a Z-move happens it's like, you're just having a regular battle and then suddenly out of nowhere the cringy cutscene begins and you're like "oh cool, fuck everything I was doing", because there's barely any way to predict it and definitely no way to react to it. It doesn't really reward smart play because it doesn't allow the opponent to strike back in any way, it's like you're just carrying a hidden nuke card and can randomly drop it at any time for a free kill. It's just a dumb mechanic, which doubles as cringy 20-second long cutscenes for good measure. I hate it, I absolutely hate it. It's the worst mechanic ever put in a Pokémon game by far.

Again, not true. For one, you too can carry a Z-move. Everything you just said about your opponent applies to you as well. For two, maybe you need to put some beefier Pokemon that can take a hit on your team, or use some moves to boost their bulk. Because if they had even average bulk, most Z-moves wouldn't one-shot them outside of being super effective (which would be stupid of your opponent to waste it on) or stat changes working against you. Or use Protect if you predict a Z-move coming, or switch into something that resists it. Or learn to predict. For thirds, if you hate the idea of the one-time nuke so much, there are PLENTY of Z-moves that don't involve direct attacking. When I have Firium Z one Delphox or Incineroar, I sometimes use Z-Will o Wisp to boost their speed a stage to help with a potential sweep. On my Magnezone, Z-Metal Sound let's me get a special attack boost; prior to Gen 7, there was no other way to boost Magnezone's special attack. These are niche strategies, yes, and they go along with what you say about them being unpredictable, but for a guy who wants weird stuff like Steel/Poison Nidoking, I figured you'd like a bit more variety and unpredictability. It's not GF's fault that people are lazy and uncreative and primarily use Z-moves as nukes. Don't hate the game, hate the player.

Oh, and I wholeheartedly agree about the cringey ass animations that take forever. I can bake a potato in the time it takes Clangorous Soulblaze to finish.

(Edit: and about evasiveness, yeah, it sucks. But one crap mechanic countering another crap mechanic doesn't make any of them better.)

Tell me that after you face your first team full of Minimize Drifblims and Chanseys and waste 30 turns of your time trying to touch them.

5. Sir, please re-read what I typed. The game's music is very important to me and is integral to the experience. I said, "Once I finished the game." Because after beating the solo adventure, I spend 95 percent of my game time in battle, breeding at the ranch, or leveling up in battle against wild Chansey. My game file says I have logged 925 hours of play time. Would you want to spend the vast majority of that time listening to the same three or four tunes?

1. I understand where you're coming from, and that's an interesting origin story indeed. However, I can't bring myself to care about the ideas behind a Pokémon's creation if I don't like their designs to begin with, and personally I find both Alolan Rattata and Yungoos to be hideous - whether they were intentionally made to be hideous or not doesn't matter. I need to like a design first and it's only from there that I might go deeper into the ideas behind it and how cool they were... and it's not like previous gens didn't have interesting ideas, either. Most of the Pokémon in gens 5 and 6 have many interesting ideas behind them, yet the reason I find the gen 6 roster to be miles better is because I like most of the designs, whereas in gen 5 there are many I dislike.

In any case, I also think there's a limit to how interesting you should make a Pokémon. That is to say, you can have the occasional super-deep Pokémon with loads of crazy references and ideas, but if every Pokémon has to have a unique background and a unique design and a unique ability and a unique move and a unique alternate form or whatever, then all this stuff starts getting really boring really fast. That's what gen 7's roster lacked for me: simplicity. In gen 7, it felt like every single Pokémon I met always came with some kind of dumb gimmick I had to overcome, every single time they had a specific ability that blocked this or countered that, or they had a signature move that did this or did that, and it really, really got old. Gone were the days of just encountering an interesting looking creature and figuring out its typing... See, I don't mind the occasional gimmicky Pokémon, but they need to be occasional only. Gen 7 to me was like as if every time I got an encounter I was running into a Kecleon, except there were like 60 different kinds of Kecleon. That, and also the ugly designs everywhere.

2. I don't think you understood what I meant to say, but okay. I never said 'bring back HMs'.

3. Alright.

4. And using Z-Moves very much involve strategy too. Deciding which Z-crystal to use, which Pokemon to put the crystal on, and when to use it in the match? That is left up to random, dumb luck in the hands of a master, sir. The same with Mega Evolution. Gen 6 Gengar: "Not going to evolve it now so it can come in on my opponent's Earthquake." Pinsir: "Not going to evolve it now so my opponent can't bring in his Gengar, because Levitate won't protect it from EQ due to Mold Breaker." Period: Hmm, should I give the Mega stone to Tyranitar or Blaziken, and how long should I keep my opponent trying to figure out which one has it?"

See, this, this right here is what I'm trying to say, about how Megas are far more interesting. When I say Z-moves involve no strategy, you write about how they actually do involve strategy for the player using them... but not for the player coming up against them. Yes I am aware (and you pointed this later) that both players can use Z-moves, but in any specific situation where one is used, there is naturally an attacking player and a defending player. And while the attacking player will obviously try to strategize and use it in the best time possible, the defending player doesn't really have anything to think about. Sure, as the meta evolves you might begin to expect a certain Pokémon to carry a certain Z-move, but ultimately it's always gonna be a "BLAM Z-MOVE TIME" thing that just happens and has no real impact on the rest of the battle, either before or after it. It's just lame. If you ever played Pokkén Tournament, Mega Evolving would be the equivalent to using the synergy burst, and Z-moves would be the equivalent to using the synergy burst attack - I hate the latter, because I find the "one-time long-cutscene super-attack" mechanic to be dumb and boring in every game it exists, whereas the former is interesting because it makes you stronger for a while and allows both players to continue playing within this situation of one having a temporary boost. Of course, Mega Evolutions in Pokémon aren't temporary, but that's balanced out by it being a team-based game rather than a 1v1 like Pokkén.

Also, dude, I literally said Kangaskhan and Mawile were maybe a little broken, and you respond with "have you ever played an online battle? Mawile and Kangaskhan were everywhere". Duh. Yes I did play Pokémon competitively for a little while, that is during X/Y's lifespan. They were the last Pokémon games I enjoyed. And I never thought Megas were that broken, I had a rather balanced team and whenever a Pokémon that had a particularly dangerous strength came on (regardless of being Mega or not), I could always switch to a Pokémon that could handle that strength well. For example, you say Greninja was broken because you had to counter him with this or that, but in my experience, at least in the X/Y days, Greninja wasn't broken at all - all you had to do was throw any Pokémon with high Sp. Def against him and he was as good as dead - even my Gogoat for example, a Pokémon no one even considers viable, could come in against a Greninja and easily tank two Ice Beams. Sure, Greninja could come with a physical set rather than special, but since all his physical moves were weaker (besides the Attack stat itself), it also invariably made him less dangerous in the process, swapping power for unpredictability. It was actually very well balanced. Of course, that all changed when OR/AS came along and was like "let's give him loads of great physical moves including Gunk Shot so he can now destroy Fairy-types", and yeah from then he was kinda broken, but there's one reason I dislike OR/AS.

In any case, that's the reason I never had a problem with Megas, they felt like a natural part of the game. Your opponent Mega Evolves, ok cool, now you have to deal with it. It was always something you could, and should react to. Some were broken, yes. I never had a problem with Kangaskhan because as long as I had my Aegislash available I could always deal with it easily (and since I had Aegislash because I liked him rather than because he counters this or that, then I never felt it was a metagame problem even if it was), but if a Mawile came along it would wipe out my whole team pretty much everytime. You ask me "why do you expect Game Freak to balance it if you know they won't?", and that's also exactly my point: that Game Freak has no idea what it's doing. If Game Freak doesn't know what they're doing, then who is to blame? Me? No I'm pretty sure it's them. I'm just here trying to state what the best solution would be, and the best solution would be to balance the game.

5. Re-read what you typed? You literally said "I don't care about the soundtrack". It doesn't get more straightforward than that.

Last edited by mZuzek - on 14 August 2018

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I am just a filthy gen oner, so my opinion does not matter. =P

Looking forward to returning to that world though next year.

Nintendo Switch Friend Code: SW-5643-2927-1984

mZuzek said: 

I too don't understand why anyone would want HMs back, that was a good riddance, but hardly a great solution. Sure, I'd much rather use those "ride Pokémon" than HMs, but they were an incredibly lazy and uninspired solution. No one wants to play a Pokémon game to be forced to use plot-based Pokémon they can't choose, people want to use their own, that's the whole point of the games. HMs should be a "built-in feature" of every Pokémon, so whatever you have on you is what you can use, but they're not tied to specific moves. As in, you can surf on water if you have a Lapras, you can push a boulder if you have a Machamp, you can travel quickly if you ride on your Rapidash, etc. Of course, some Pokémon could have access to multiple abilities, but regardless, they would always be your own. Forcing plot-based Pokémon on the player was one of the most stupid choices I've seen.


Id would prefer a different solution.

There should be a menu for pokeride registration, where you associate to every type of ride a given pokemon you captured. Either if it is with you or in the box. So, you are not limited to bring a surfing, or pokemon with specific ability with you. The limitation of HMs is not only on the move, but also in the team building. If pokemon is about freedom of team, that would limit the choices of the player(everytime I tryed a monotype team was really frustrating to handle HMs). Also, it can potentially double the pokemon that are with you, 6 for battle, 6 for riding,. And if you wish, they can be the same.