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Forums - Politics - US Supreme Court: Christian baker does not have to bake 'the gay cake'

CrazyGamer2017 said:
massimus said:

America has freedom of speech and freedom of religion in our constitution, that’s the difference. The courts ruled in favor of the bakers religious and creative liberties and the discrimination was against the treatment of the baker by the state. This was a confined case, it’s not widespread. Their plight? They could have gone anywhere for a cake, they chose this guy and then wanted to force him to make an example of him. They are activists, not victims and the ruling reflected on that. The Supreme Court are not criminal lawyers they are constitutional lawyers, they decide the constitutionality of things. That’s why it might be weird for a European. They might not agree with the baker but that doesn’t matter, it’s his constitutional right. 

As far as I know we also have freedom of speech and religion but over here religion is more of a private thing, it's your personal business, you cannot impose on others your beliefs like that baker did. The gay couple entered a store selling cakes, they did not enter a church, they were very rightfully expecting to be served as ANY other customer in any bakery.

The baker interfered with something that has NOTHING to do with the job of baking cakes and that is RELIGION and then DISCRIMINATION that is an offense and I guess in Europe we would tend to not let people get away with offenses.

In my opinion the American notion of freedom can have its benefits and it is in and of itself very noble but this is a clear example of freedom abuse. I am free to discriminate you and no one can tell me anything cause I am free. This is plain wrong, period. Ever heard the say: With power comes responsibility? Well I want to add that with freedom also comes responsibility.

My conclusion is that we can never truly agree here because you guys are considering constitutional rights whereas I am considering human rights. Both are important, both are part of our world but in a rare case where they come clashing against each other I choose human rights and you guys choose constitutional rights, end of story. Not sure what can be said beyond that.

they could get any other food in there he did not do a total denial of service, your point is invalid



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kirby007 said:

they could get any other food in there he did not do a total denial of service, your point is invalid

I genuinely don't understand this kind of reply.

it does not matter that the baker could have given them the keys to the universe itself.

The point is a modern society treats everybody to the same rights. A straight couple would NOT have been denied a wedding cake.

the second a gay couple is denied their cake, they are not treated the same and the very basic principle of equality collapses.

If a straight couple does not have to walk away and look for another bakery why should a gay couple do?

You want to send the gay couple out looking for a different bakery, fine but that is not equality and that means all citizens are not treated equally and that is the issue here.

Capitalism is basically very simple: You want something you pay it with money WHOEVER you are. There is no need for a paradigm shift where you must add: you want something you pay it with money IF you are straight, if you're gay then money won't be enough, you'll have to be judged too and potentially turned down.

How some people do not understand these fundamental concepts boggles my mind. My point is very valid and very clear.

EDIT: No wonder that you guys had slavery as a legal thing for so long, no wonder some people even today can't treat black people like the human beings they are.

Last edited by CrazyGamer2017 - on 06 June 2018

CrazyGamer2017 said: 

Capitalism is basically very simple: You want something you pay it with money WHOEVER you are. 

Let me ask you something - do you think an organisation like Mensa is discriminating against people? 

Because they won't let you be a member just because you have the money to pay their yearly fee. Is that discrimination?



Kaneman! said:
CrazyGamer2017 said: 

Capitalism is basically very simple: You want something you pay it with money WHOEVER you are. 

Let me ask you something - do you think an organisation like Mensa is discriminating against people? 

Because they won't let you be a member just because you have the money to pay their yearly fee. Is that discrimination?

Didn't know Mensa, I just googled it and apparently it's some group that only accepts people with a high IQ. some kind of elite think tank.

First congrats, finally someone who asks me a really tricky question regarding this issue. I can smell the trap you're laying for me, but it's a smart trap so I respect that

Well one could argue that there is a case for discrimination here because they won't accept people under a certain IQ and IQ's like sexual orientation or skin color is not something we choose and what we don't choose should not be held against us...

On the other hand (and here is where I avoid your trap ) they discriminate EQUALLY everyone. Gays, Straights, Blacks, Whites, Jews etc. If you don't have the required IQ you cannot join and your sexual orientation or skin color is not taken into account. And since we live in a world where low IQ's or even average IQ's are not considered a social group or a minority that needs to be protected, I'd say Mensa does not really violate any rights, both human or constitutional.

They seem to be some kind of elite circle jerk that loves to pat each other on the back and feel superior or something like that



CrazyGamer2017 said:
massimus said:

America has freedom of speech and freedom of religion in our constitution, that’s the difference. The courts ruled in favor of the bakers religious and creative liberties and the discrimination was against the treatment of the baker by the state. This was a confined case, it’s not widespread. Their plight? They could have gone anywhere for a cake, they chose this guy and then wanted to force him to make an example of him. They are activists, not victims and the ruling reflected on that. The Supreme Court are not criminal lawyers they are constitutional lawyers, they decide the constitutionality of things. That’s why it might be weird for a European. They might not agree with the baker but that doesn’t matter, it’s his constitutional right. 

As far as I know we also have freedom of speech and religion but over here religion is more of a private thing, it's your personal business, you cannot impose on others your beliefs like that baker did. The gay couple entered a store selling cakes, they did not enter a church, they were very rightfully expecting to be served as ANY other customer in any bakery.

The baker interfered with something that has NOTHING to do with the job of baking cakes and that is RELIGION and then DISCRIMINATION that is an offense and I guess in Europe we would tend to not let people get away with offenses.

In my opinion the American notion of freedom can have its benefits and it is in and of itself very noble but this is a clear example of freedom abuse. I am free to discriminate you and no one can tell me anything cause I am free. This is plain wrong, period. Ever heard the say: With power comes responsibility? Well I want to add that with freedom also comes responsibility.

My conclusion is that we can never truly agree here because you guys are considering constitutional rights whereas I am considering human rights. Both are important, both are part of our world but in a rare case where they come clashing against each other I choose human rights and you guys choose constitutional rights, end of story. Not sure what can be said beyond that.

I'm not going to pretend to speak for all of Europe because I don't know. I know of a few countries that don't. For example this most recent anti-immigrant guy that just got locked up in the UK. That never would have happened here. That judge in UK locked his ass up and then threw a media blackout on it so it wouldn't be discussed. Because what, his country is falling apart and he's pissed? Welcome to the club lol. The UK doesn't have freedom of speech in their constitution.

That is the very essence of the freedom of speech and our constitutions are the law for our laws. If you believe in that sort of thing, law and justice instead of cosmic justice utopianism. The Human right to speak your mind without government persecution, basically. A free press is not designed to be partisan propaganda like it is now, they're supposed to be ruthless watchdogs that call facts out on corruption, free of government persecution (and our press used to be this way). You agree with the right to assemble right? The right to protest government action without fear of the firing squad? The right to practice your religion without the fear of the state forcing it's will on you. This is all in our very first amendment. The 2nd right is to arm yourself if that firing squad does come. Do you think this blissful equality you live in wasn't build on blood? My constitutional rights are my human rights etched in stone and the highest judges in the land have to respect that. That's all i'm pointing out, you can believe what you want lol. I can understand how the supreme court might confuse a European  with a parliamentary system though. Although Europeans are probably more educated about american law than americans are, which is sad.

 

His bakery is his private business, that is his church. He's not the cable guy denying you service because you are gay. He doesen't want to build a custom wedding cake for a gay wedding and he didn't want to cater it. That's how it had to do with the religion and he didn't want to do it. Who cares? Go somewhere else. The State punished him for not doing it, that's unconstitutional. It violates his first amendment rights. I don't believe there is a human right for cake.



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Aeolus451 said:
Teeqoz said:

They didn't attempt to force him to bake the cake. They went to a different baker, but they sent a complaint to the Colorado Civil Rights Commission. They didn't drag him to court to force him to bake the cake for them, they sent a complaint, and the Colorado Civil Rights Commission made ruling against the baker, which the SCOTUS now ruled that the Civil Rights Commission was biased thus the ruling was overturned.

He refused to bake non-custom wedding cakes as well - both cakes he had baked for previous customers, as well as a non-descript cake. So it didn't have anything to do with them asking for a custom cake - he refused baking any wedding cake for a gay wedding.

I saw plenty of stuff that says otherwise. If it was as you said it, it would have been clear cut.

I wasn't there of course, but an article that someone linked to in this thread says that this was indeed the case. I quote from the article (my own emphasis):

"Phillips’s attorneys pointed out that he even offered to provide other kinds of cakes, brownies, or cookies to Craig and Mullins — showing that the issue was not that the men are gay. But he did refuse all wedding cakes to the couple, including cakes that were made for other customers before and a “nondescript” cake "

Last edited by Teeqoz - on 06 June 2018

massimus said:

His bakery is his private business, that is his church. He's not the cable guy denying you service because you are gay. He doesen't want to build a custom wedding cake for a gay wedding and he didn't want to cater it. That's how it had to do with the religion and he didn't want to do it. Who cares? Go somewhere else. The State punished him for not doing it, that's unconstitutional. It violates his first amendment rights. I don't believe there is a human right for cake.

Forget the cake, the cake is just the catalyst here of discrimination, the cake is not important. I never said there is a human right for cake, I said there is, or should be a human right that protects against discrimination so that you can thrive in society without fear of being segregated because of your skin color or sexual orientation.

As for the UK thing, his name is Tommy Robinson and yeah that sucks big time. I am against Brexit but that kind of UK can leave the EU, I don't really want it in.

You say your constitution would have protected him? Well that would be a case where your constitution would be a very positive thing. I don't know all the details of the events surrounding Tommy Robinson's case but I heard he got imprisoned over his opinions. I'm not sure what's going on in the UK but it's rather worrisome. And we must be vigilant over here in the EU, we can never say this would never happen here. I would think it wouldn't but I can never be sure of that.

I guess democracy means constant vigilance and distrust of the government who could be easily tempted into abusing their power.



CrazyGamer2017 said:
kirby007 said:

they could get any other food in there he did not do a total denial of service, your point is invalid

I genuinely don't understand this kind of reply.

it does not matter that the baker could have given them the keys to the universe itself.

The point is a modern society treats everybody to the same rights. A straight couple would NOT have been denied a wedding cake.

the second a gay couple is denied their cake, they are not treated the same and the very basic principle of equality collapses.

If a straight couple does not have to walk away and look for another bakery why should a gay couple do?

You want to send the gay couple out looking for a different bakery, fine but that is not equality and that means all citizens are not treated equally and that is the issue here.

Capitalism is basically very simple: You want something you pay it with money WHOEVER you are. There is no need for a paradigm shift where you must add: you want something you pay it with money IF you are straight, if you're gay then money won't be enough, you'll have to be judged too and potentially turned down.

How some people do not understand these fundamental concepts boggles my mind. My point is very valid and very clear.

EDIT: No wonder that you guys had slavery as a legal thing for so long, no wonder some people even today can't treat black people like the human beings they are.

Very smart cherry pick only the demand side from capitalism. The supply side has the option supply or not. This includes the option to supply whom they choose to. 



 "I think people should define the word crap" - Kirby007

Join the Prediction League http://www.vgchartz.com/predictions

Instead of seeking to convince others, we can be open to changing our own minds, and seek out information that contradicts our own steadfast point of view. Maybe it’ll turn out that those who disagree with you actually have a solid grasp of the facts. There’s a slight possibility that, after all, you’re the one who’s wrong.

CosmicSex said:
o_O.Q said:

 

"The law says you have to create that couple the same way you treat all couples."

which law states that?

Basically, I can't see a black couple come in they ask me to book a service and I book it then a white couple comes in and they ask for the same service but I don't like white people so I try to up charge them or tell them I can't.  You have to treat all customers looking for the same service the same.  One race or group doesn't get different service for the same money.  That is what business laws protect against.  I can't offer a 1/2 lb burger for $10 on my menu, attract people to my restaurant, and then when the get there, I only give black people 1/4 burger for $10.  

"You have to treat all customers looking for the same service the same."

which law states that?



Mcube said:
Puppyroach said:

Every single religion is made up so of course you can create whatever religion you want. 

Pretty sure there is a difference between christianity a religion thats been around for more then 2000 years and what Harold the bigotted racists made up religion in his basement is. Both have things they believe in and none of them should complain about eachother simple. This is a fair ruling and the baker should not be forced to make a cake for something he doesnt believe in. 

What is the difference? Time? That would be a pretty bad definition of religion 🙂.