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Forums - Politics Discussion - US Supreme Court: Christian baker does not have to bake 'the gay cake'

CrazyGamer2017 said:
Mcube said:

There is a pretty big difference in that and Im pretty sure you can see that. Also wouldnt go work at a public place where dozens of people are at a single screening ranging from all kind of backgrounds, religions and sexualities to watch a movie together. A baker is someone who does stuff 1 on 1. There arent hundreds of people coming in to the baker at once and all togeher ask for a single cake. And its not so much that he doesnt want to serve them he doesnt want his cake to be for a ceremony he wouldnt support. Its his art as dumb as that may sound. He has his choice. 

As a matter of fact no, there isn't much difference. The issue here is freedom of refusal to carry out one's professional responsibility if one's beliefs are not in accordance with one's job. That is EXACTLY the case in my example of a projectionist refusing to do his job over his beliefs and the same goes for the baker.

The fact the baker does "stuff 1 on 1" is irrelevant to the main issue which again is the right to not do a job if it goes against one's beliefs. If a baker can refuse to cake a bake because the homosexual theme of the cake goes against his beliefs, a projectionist should have the same right if a movie depicts something that goes against his beliefs.

I think my example clearly demonstrates the absurdity of refusing to do your job over religious concerns. As George Carlin said and I'm paraphrasing: People should keep religion to themselves and not let it interfere with the normal routines of everyday's life. and I'll add: Even more so at their jobs where their actions have consequences on other people (like the gay couple in the bakery).

No if you want a example that would be likely with a movie theater it´d be something like the owner not showing Brokeback mountain when it released because he´s christian and doesnt support what the movie portrays. Your example is clearly something totally different it´s his bakery and he shouldn´t be forced into doing something for a cause he doesnt believe in. If you cant see the difference between your example and what actually happaned then there is no point argueing with you. Court ruled in favor of the baker and it was absolutely the right call to make. 



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Mcube said:

No if you want a example that would be likely with a movie theater it´d be something like the owner not showing Brokeback mountain when it released because he´s christian and doesnt support what the movie portrays. Your example is clearly something totally different it´s his bakery and he shouldn´t be forced into doing something for a cause he doesnt believe in. If you cant see the difference between your example and what actually happaned then there is no point argueing with you. Court ruled in favor of the baker and it was absolutely the right call to make. 

Oh it's his bakery so that's why he shouldn't be forced to do his job... The projectionist does not own the cinema so he should be forced to do his job, fuck his constitutional rights, they are for the baker because the constitution only applies to owners and bosses, that makes total sense, got it

In fact your example of the owner not showing Brokeback Mountain does not apply because people go to movie theaters to see movies that are ON, and nobody goes to a movie theater to ask to see a movie that is not on. People have always chosen from the movies available to that particular theater at the time they enter the place.

Whereas in a bakery you CAN order a cake, especially for a wedding. Nobody buys a pre-made cake for weddings, it's always a bespoke order and the order was refused not cause the ingredients are unavailable, it's cake, the stuff inside is totally available to the baker. It was refused cause of the cake's theme.

This is basic logic 101, I'm sure you are intelligent enough to understand this and if not then I'll have to agree with you that there is no point in further arguing this.

Last edited by CrazyGamer2017 - on 06 June 2018

CrazyGamer2017 said:
Mcube said:

No if you want a example that would be likely with a movie theater it´d be something like the owner not showing Brokeback mountain when it released because he´s christian and doesnt support what the movie portrays. Your example is clearly something totally different it´s his bakery and he shouldn´t be forced into doing something for a cause he doesnt believe in. If you cant see the difference between your example and what actually happaned then there is no point argueing with you. Court ruled in favor of the baker and it was absolutely the right call to make. 

Oh it's his bakery so that's why he shouldn't be forced to do his job... The projectionist does not own the cinema so he should be forced to do his job, fuck his constitutional rights, they are for the baker because the constitution only applies to owners and bosses, that makes total sense, got it

In fact your example of the owner not showing Brokeback Mountain does not apply because people go to movie theaters to see movies that are ON, and nobody goes to a movie theater to ask to see a movie that is not on. People have always chosen from the movies available to that particular theater at the time the enter the place.

Whereas in a bakery you CAN order a cake, especially for a wedding. Nobody buys a pre-made cake for weddings, it's always a bespoke order and the order was refused not cause the ingredients are unavailable, it's cake, the stuff inside is totally available to the baker. It was refused cause of the cake's theme.

This is basic logic 101, I'm sure you are intelligent enough to understand this and if not then I'll have to agree with you that there is no point in further arguing this.

Your logic isnt basic logic. One guy is refusing to do his service (His art if you will) for a event he doesnt support the other one just refuses to do his job. Its his bakery he can do what he wants he owns the damn place you cant force someone to do something they dont want to do when they are the boss around. He declined because of his believe its his right to. A projectionist doesnt own the theater if he does then he shouldnt charge people first to come in to watch the movie should he? Your example is idiotic and doesnt prove your point in the slightest. The argument you´re making doesnt make sense there are so many flaws in your example its stupid. The baker didnt accept the money and went like ´nah fam lmao not doing it´ which is what your example would be like. The projectionst can simply refuse to screen the movie at work. Im sure the boss can get him in another showing to do a different film and get someone else to do Brokeback Mountain (Im stll using brokeback mountain as an example) for that screening. 

If you cant see a difference between your example and the event that happened there isn´t anything to discuss. 



Mcube said:
CrazyGamer2017 said:

Oh it's his bakery so that's why he shouldn't be forced to do his job... The projectionist does not own the cinema so he should be forced to do his job, fuck his constitutional rights, they are for the baker because the constitution only applies to owners and bosses, that makes total sense, got it

In fact your example of the owner not showing Brokeback Mountain does not apply because people go to movie theaters to see movies that are ON, and nobody goes to a movie theater to ask to see a movie that is not on. People have always chosen from the movies available to that particular theater at the time the enter the place.

Whereas in a bakery you CAN order a cake, especially for a wedding. Nobody buys a pre-made cake for weddings, it's always a bespoke order and the order was refused not cause the ingredients are unavailable, it's cake, the stuff inside is totally available to the baker. It was refused cause of the cake's theme.

This is basic logic 101, I'm sure you are intelligent enough to understand this and if not then I'll have to agree with you that there is no point in further arguing this.

Your logic isnt basic logic. One guy is refusing to do his service (His art if you will) for a event he doesnt support the other one just refuses to do his job. Its his bakery he can do what he wants he owns the damn place you cant force someone to do something they dont want to do when they are the boss around. He declined because of his believe its his right to. A projectionist doesnt own the theater if he does then he shouldnt charge people first to come in to watch the movie should he? Your example is idiotic and doesnt prove your point in the slightest. The argument you´re making doesnt make sense there are so many flaws in your example its stupid. The baker didnt accept the money and went like ´nah fam lmao not doing it´ which is what your example would be like. The projectionst can simply refuse to screen the movie at work. Im sure the boss can get him in another showing to do a different film and get someone else to do Brokeback Mountain (Im stll using brokeback mountain as an example) for that screening. 

If you cant see a difference between your example and the event that happened there isn´t anything to discuss. 

Then stop discussing, you are so shut down to logic that any further discussion is now obviously impossible. You totally apply double standards, one can refuse cause he's the owner, the other can't cause he's an employee. The issue here was NEVER the rights of an owner vs the rights of an employee, the issue what the constitutional rights of an AMERICAN CITIZEN. So yeah I'm done with you on this issue. Cheers dude.



Soundwave said:

They can do what they want, but if you want to live in a Western society I think you're going to have to accept a few things

1.) Gay people exist and aren't going to "hide" in the closet anymore. Those days are over.

2.) They get married just like other people do.

They're not going to "go away" because you want to be in denial or pretend that they're not members of society. You can be on the right side of history or you can be on the bigoted side of it, I guess that's an individual choice.


So throw the baker in jail for rejecting to create an expressing of homosexual approval?



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numberwang said:
Soundwave said:

They can do what they want, but if you want to live in a Western society I think you're going to have to accept a few things

1.) Gay people exist and aren't going to "hide" in the closet anymore. Those days are over.

2.) They get married just like other people do.

They're not going to "go away" because you want to be in denial or pretend that they're not members of society. You can be on the right side of history or you can be on the bigoted side of it, I guess that's an individual choice.


So throw the baker in jail for rejecting to create an expressing of homosexual approval?

I would normally not reply to this type of rejoinder but I can't help but ask you this question:

Why do you think baking a damn cake would mean the baker has to approve of what is the customer's PERSONAL LIFE?

If you work in a sex shop you will have straight customers that will purchase vaginas and gays that will purchase butt-plugs or dildos. Assuming you are straight, in what universe selling a butt-plug to a customer would make you gay or would mean that you approve gays? It's a customer that wants a butt-plug. What he will do with it is NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS. You are a clerk or owner of the shop, your job is to sell sex toys, NOT to judge those who buy it. No one is forcing you to sell those. If you don't wanna sell those cause you have a mental butt-plug stuck in your religious mind, sell shoes or insurances or whatever. DO NOT go work in a sex shop if you have religious reservation against one particular community. DO NOT work in a sex shop JUST to be able to tell a gay that you will NOT sell him his sex toy. What is so hard to understand here? It should be a non issue in any civilized country.

And to answer your question, no need to throw the baker in jail, a fine for discrimination should do. If the baker is a repeated offender make the fine bigger and bigger, end of story.



Rocketjay8 said:
Mcube said:

You cant just create a religion out of nowhere thats just anti black or something. There is a certain way this case should be measured instead of blatant racism. As far as we know the baker only refused to make a cake, something he makes himself, his own kind of art. He´s christian he doesnt believe in gay marriage so he wont make a cake for it since he´d be helping something he himself doesnt believe in. 

While thisismeintel´s example is a bit over the top he does have a point. When a KKK member walks into a bakers shop and the baker is black he´s not gonna make a cake with a fire cross on it and man in klux klux klan uniforms around the cross. Nor should he. Its a really really out there example its the extreme of the extreme but I do agree with what he says with it. You cant push your believe on other people as narrow minded as it is every person has a right to believe what they believe in. 

Being gay is not a choice. Being Nazi/KKK is a choice. It's not the same.

Like I said its an extreme your completely right in that regard. I´d much rather have it the baker just baked the cake but I do have respect for his beliefs and he shouldnt be forced into something he doesnt believe in. I have the same feelings if a gay baker had to make a cake for a Christian wedding where the couple was anti LGBT. Someones art should never be used for something they dont believe in. 



CrazyGamer2017 said:

So you think his beliefs should give him the right to not take his professional responsibilities?

Ok so by that logic a projectionist in a cinema should be allowed to refuse projecting a movie he does not believe in?

I'd love to see that. I can almost picture some kind of announcement before the show "ladies and gentlemen we are sorry to inform you that you will not be able to see the movie you paid for. Our projectionist does not believe in it so in accordance with his constitutional rights, your rights to see a movie you paid for are cancelled, please find the nearest exit and have a good day".

LOL.

It's his company, he is not the employee, but the owner. That is the difference you fail to realise.

If the projectionist doesn't do his job in accordance to his beliefs, that's fine, he'll get fired for that as a consequence.

If an owner refuses to do it, it'll cost him money and buisiness.
Forcing a business to do a product/offer a service that the state wants is pretty much forced labour.



CrazyGamer2017 said:
Mcube said:

Your logic isnt basic logic. One guy is refusing to do his service (His art if you will) for a event he doesnt support the other one just refuses to do his job. Its his bakery he can do what he wants he owns the damn place you cant force someone to do something they dont want to do when they are the boss around. He declined because of his believe its his right to. A projectionist doesnt own the theater if he does then he shouldnt charge people first to come in to watch the movie should he? Your example is idiotic and doesnt prove your point in the slightest. The argument you´re making doesnt make sense there are so many flaws in your example its stupid. The baker didnt accept the money and went like ´nah fam lmao not doing it´ which is what your example would be like. The projectionst can simply refuse to screen the movie at work. Im sure the boss can get him in another showing to do a different film and get someone else to do Brokeback Mountain (Im stll using brokeback mountain as an example) for that screening. 

If you cant see a difference between your example and the event that happened there isn´t anything to discuss. 

Then stop discussing, you are so shut down to logic that any further discussion is now obviously impossible. You totally apply double standards, one can refuse cause he's the owner, the other can't cause he's an employee. The issue here was NEVER the rights of an owner vs the rights of an employee, the issue what the constitutional rights of an AMERICAN CITIZEN. So yeah I'm done with you on this issue. Cheers dude.

Its not double standards your dumbass example just doesnt apply in any way whats happening. You seem to ignore what I wrote at the end and only focus on the employee boss thing. You seem to be sensetive on the issue so im done with it anyway im not gonna argue with someone who cant consider both sides stories. Cheers.



This should have never even been a legal question. Of course he is allowed to be a bigot, and free to choose who he provides services to (as he is not working for the public or in service of the public). The guy has no problem selling cakes to marry dogs, so whatever conception he has of marriage is idiotic anyway. But he is free to choose and express his religious views and rights.