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Forums - Politics Discussion - US Supreme Court: Christian baker does not have to bake 'the gay cake'

CrazyGamer2017 said:
numberwang said:

You still having answered my earlier question: would you use the power of the state to force the baker to express approvement of homosexual things under punishment.

No why would I do that? I actually have answered your question several times through different posts to different people here. But here goes for you: I would use the law to force the baker to DO HIS JOB which It seems I must remind you is BAKING, not discriminating. His personal opinions do not give him the right to discriminate or at least shouldn't but with Trump at the white house it seems he has now that right, why am I not surprised?

Other than that he may write in his bakery that he hates gays and blacks and everything in between for all I care. In fact that way at least people could see clearly what level of ignorant that baker is from a distance and maybe avoid him or something.

While this may not be the case in Europe and I'm not trying to equate these two issues together, would you sell a gun to a murderer if you owned a gunstore and you believe that everyone has the right to live their life freely?

If no, while again it doesn't equate to this scope, your making a hypocritical point.



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CrazyGamer2017 said:
numberwang said:

You still having answered my earlier question: would you use the power of the state to force the baker to express approvement of homosexual things under punishment.

No why would I do that? I actually have answered your question several times through different posts to different people here. But here goes for you: I would use the law to force the baker to DO HIS JOB which It seems I must remind you is BAKING, not discriminating. His personal opinions do not give him the right to discriminate or at least shouldn't but with Trump at the white house it seems he has now that right, why am I not surprised?

Other than that he may write in his bakery that he hates gays and blacks and everything in between for all I care. In fact that way at least people could see clearly what level of ignorance that baker is from a distance and maybe avoid him or something.

Trump was the first President to endorse gay marriage (as a Citizen) long before Obama or Clinton flip-flopped.

So you would use the power of the state to throw him in jail ultimately? What happened to live and let live & gay marriage won't affect your life?



TH3-D0S3R said:
CrazyGamer2017 said:

No why would I do that? I actually have answered your question several times through different posts to different people here. But here goes for you: I would use the law to force the baker to DO HIS JOB which It seems I must remind you is BAKING, not discriminating. His personal opinions do not give him the right to discriminate or at least shouldn't but with Trump at the white house it seems he has now that right, why am I not surprised?

Other than that he may write in his bakery that he hates gays and blacks and everything in between for all I care. In fact that way at least people could see clearly what level of ignorant that baker is from a distance and maybe avoid him or something.

While this may not be the case in Europe and I'm not trying to equate these two issues together, would you sell a gun to a murderer if you owned a gunstore and you believe that everyone has the right to live their life freely?

If no, while again it doesn't equate to this scope, your making a hypocritical point.

Why would I sell a gun to a murderer? In fact why would I sell a gun to anyone? People who don't plan to kill anyone won't buy a gun in the first place, all those massacres in America kind of rub our noses in this issue again and again and we don't learn from it.

But I digress, No I would not sell a gun to a murderer, I can't help to read what you will do with my answer cause I'm curious to see what your point is?

EDIT: You are making a completely illogical comparison but again I am waiting for you to explain what is hypocritical here?



TH3-D0S3R said:
Agree strongly on the verdict with this one. As a Christian who knows a bit of different branches, not all branches are against gay marriage. In fact I believe the Methodist church does ceremonies for gay marriage.

I myself have nothing against gay people and will attend a ceremony and give a gift if its for a close friend or family member, however I would refuse to have any sort of part in making the ceremony a thing such as best man or in this instance baking a cake.

I love the person inside and understand what they are doing completely and will do anything to help them in the future, but there are some lines I prefer to maintain in my beliefs as well.

The issue isn't about how you feel about someone's lifestyle or your willingness to interact with them.  Its about whether or not business have the right to pick and chose who to server and since the state or region has the right to create their own business laws, they said, you can't deny someone service because they aren't the same religion, color, sex, sexuality... it because they can't decide how to regulate business or protect its citizens if every business plays by their own set of rules. 

You can't see a mixed race couple come in your store and say:  I'm not severing your because I don't believe in mixed race couples.  The law says you have to create that couple the same way you treat all couples.

And finally, if you fail to serve a gay couple the same way as a straight couple because of your religious beliefs. When I was younger I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness and they are hardcore religion haters.  They think every other branch of Christianity is blasphemy and that people who adore the cross, go to church, worship the Pope, believe in Christmas and celebrate birthdays are going to die or be resurrected and killed again.  Welcome to my store, how can I help you?



It's the right decision. Expression is speech and forced expression violates the freedom of speech. The LGBT community isn't winning any friends with the position of forced acceptance.



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numberwang said:
CrazyGamer2017 said:

No why would I do that? I actually have answered your question several times through different posts to different people here. But here goes for you: I would use the law to force the baker to DO HIS JOB which It seems I must remind you is BAKING, not discriminating. His personal opinions do not give him the right to discriminate or at least shouldn't but with Trump at the white house it seems he has now that right, why am I not surprised?

Other than that he may write in his bakery that he hates gays and blacks and everything in between for all I care. In fact that way at least people could see clearly what level of ignorance that baker is from a distance and maybe avoid him or something.

Trump was the first President to endorse gay marriage (as a Citizen) long before Obama or Clinton flip-flopped.

So you would use the power of the state to throw him in jail ultimately? What happened to live and let live & gay marriage won't affect your life?

Do you see how dishonest your reply is? Where did I say I would use the power of the state to throw him in jail? Read my comment again, I underlined my answer in case it somehow still eludes you.

That's the only part I hate in debates, when you dry up your opponents' arguments they sometimes become aggressive, other times make stuff up and pretend you said something you so very obviously never said in order to bring confusion and obfuscate.



TallSilhouette said:
Sticky situation. Businesses don't have to serve individual customers, but would this fly if it was store policy or religious principle to, say, not serve black people?

I'm in favour of that too, because anyone stupid enough to do that in most places would see their business destroyed. The only way Americans are going to get past their warped identity politics is to let social progress destroy them.

Where discrimination should not be allowed is by law enforcement, education, and all other government institutions.

In the US, it is also legal to refuse service to fat people.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

CosmicSex said:
TH3-D0S3R said:
Agree strongly on the verdict with this one. As a Christian who knows a bit of different branches, not all branches are against gay marriage. In fact I believe the Methodist church does ceremonies for gay marriage.

I myself have nothing against gay people and will attend a ceremony and give a gift if its for a close friend or family member, however I would refuse to have any sort of part in making the ceremony a thing such as best man or in this instance baking a cake.

I love the person inside and understand what they are doing completely and will do anything to help them in the future, but there are some lines I prefer to maintain in my beliefs as well.

The issue isn't about how you feel about someone's lifestyle or your willingness to interact with them.  Its about whether or not business have the right to pick and chose who to server and since the state or region has the right to create their own business laws, they said, you can't deny someone service because they aren't the same religion, color, sex, sexuality... it because they can't decide how to regulate business or protect its citizens if every business plays by their own set of rules. 

You can't see a mixed race couple come in your store and say:  I'm not severing your because I don't believe in mixed race couples.  The law says you have to create that couple the same way you treat all couples.

And finally, if you fail to serve a gay couple the same way as a straight couple because of your religious beliefs. When I was younger I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness and they are hardcore religion haters.  They think every other branch of Christianity is blasphemy and that people who adore the cross, go to church, worship the Pope, believe in Christmas and celebrate birthdays are going to die or be resurrected and killed again.  Welcome to my store, how can I help you?

 

Cool, thanks for making our point about making your intentions known so that we as consumers can make a conscious decision to support or avoid your business.

 

BTW, I'm not religious but I wouldn't want to give you any money 



CrazyGamer2017 said:
TH3-D0S3R said:

While this may not be the case in Europe and I'm not trying to equate these two issues together, would you sell a gun to a murderer if you owned a gunstore and you believe that everyone has the right to live their life freely?

If no, while again it doesn't equate to this scope, your making a hypocritical point.

Why would I sell a gun to a murderer? In fact why would I sell a gun to anyone? People who don't plan to kill anyone won't buy a gun in the first place, all those massacres in America kind of rub our noses in this issue again and again and we don't learn from it.

But I digress, No I would not sell a gun to a murderer, I can't help to read what you will do with my answer cause I'm curious to see what is your point.

Exactly. Point is, it's the owners BELIEF that every person has the right to live (in fact that's why an overwhelming majority of gun owners in America own guns, that way they can better protect themselves when someone decides to try and infringe on their right) and as such wont sell to someone who doesn't have the same moral standard as he does and wants to kill as many as possible. By the logic that you've been stating here, such as this statement here:

'I would use the law to force the baker to DO HIS JOB which It seems I must remind you is BAKING, not discriminating.'

Let me replace the words to fit in with the context of what I am and you were saying:

'I would use the law to force the gun store owner to DO HIS JOB which It seems I must remind you is SELLING GUNS, not discriminating.'

You see how this becomes an issue when you force this in practical business? If you make a baker bake cakes based on forced business and not their moral beliefs, this will translate over to society in all other businesses. Teens who need help will get access to over the counter pills based on discrimination. Murderers can get guns because they're being biased with predetermined tests. Etc.

Point is, the baker did the best he could to help the customers. He offered to make them anything else, as long as it wasn't a wedding cake, because it goes against his standards of marriage as a Christian of his branch. The point is, he made the effort to serve the customers as far as he could based on his beliefs, which is protected by the 1st Amendment. The man didn't force them out of his restaurant because they were gay, he offered brownies, cupcakes, cakes, and other items as long it didn't have mention of any marriage related material, which to me is more than fair. He never made them become Christian or stop being gay for his services, so this idea of the baker being discriminatory is stupid, incoherent, and illogical.

If the couple really wanted to just be like everyone else, they would've gone to another bakery which most likely wasn't far away at all, or they could've opened their own bakery. Instead, they forced their beliefs on the guy by taking this all the way to SCOTUS, where they got exposed for the bullies they were.

You can offer services to anyone, but forcing the store owner to do it or else discrimination prison is beyond bad, and as I stated before, sometimes bad discrimination to you helps good discrimination not be carried out. If you forced a man to bake a cake for a gay wedding or else discrimination, what then will stop the murderers from yelling discrimination when it comes to buying guns?

While you may not like it, in a way it is a necessary evil that does good. It equals free speech in that people can say terrible things but you also have the right to say whatever you want, and in both instances, there CAN BE CONSEQUENCES. If you don't like the baker's decisions and frequently buy from him, don't go there anymore and run him out of business.

Again, I agree with the baker, but there are counter balances that seem to be ignored.



CosmicSex said:
TH3-D0S3R said:
Agree strongly on the verdict with this one. As a Christian who knows a bit of different branches, not all branches are against gay marriage. In fact I believe the Methodist church does ceremonies for gay marriage.

I myself have nothing against gay people and will attend a ceremony and give a gift if its for a close friend or family member, however I would refuse to have any sort of part in making the ceremony a thing such as best man or in this instance baking a cake.

I love the person inside and understand what they are doing completely and will do anything to help them in the future, but there are some lines I prefer to maintain in my beliefs as well.

The issue isn't about how you feel about someone's lifestyle or your willingness to interact with them.  Its about whether or not business have the right to pick and chose who to server and since the state or region has the right to create their own business laws, they said, you can't deny someone service because they aren't the same religion, color, sex, sexuality... it because they can't decide how to regulate business or protect its citizens if every business plays by their own set of rules. 

You can't see a mixed race couple come in your store and say:  I'm not severing your because I don't believe in mixed race couples.  The law says you have to create that couple the same way you treat all couples.

And finally, if you fail to serve a gay couple the same way as a straight couple because of your religious beliefs. When I was younger I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness and they are hardcore religion haters.  They think every other branch of Christianity is blasphemy and that people who adore the cross, go to church, worship the Pope, believe in Christmas and celebrate birthdays are going to die or be resurrected and killed again.  Welcome to my store, how can I help you?

 

Okay fine. If your family owns a store and you openly hate every other branch of Christianity, me and 85% of Americans who identify as Christians will purposely boycott you and run you out of business due to imminent alternatives. We wont force you to serve us, because nobody wins in that case.

This is different in the baker's case because he offered to serve them in different ways when he didn't have to at all.