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Forums - Politics Discussion - Delaware students can now choose their own race (Yes, RACE!) under new regulations.

Dark_Lord_2008 said:
Unique snowflakes jump and down and make lots of noise and can make law changes. Laws are now being made to not upset the feelings of unique snowflakes or laws to give minority groups special rights. Under a democratic system, laws are made for the majority of citizens. It is not a democratic system where small groups of trouble makers can make law changes through protests.

Is this a quote from fox news or something like that? Equally amusing, confusing and incoherent :D

And on topic, if the "race" and gender of the students is needed by the school (don´t ask me why) how it should be done? What harm is done if somebody decides to be of sith, dino or whatever race?

Genetic tests or choice? Choosing is cheaper, but pretty meaningless and genetic tests cost a lot, but offer more reliable genetic information.



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John2290 said:
Dark_Lord_2008 said:
Pathetic world we live in now. Back in the good old days, idiots like that would get their teeth kicked in.

Hmm, I don't understand. What's the context of this reply? Which idiots? 

 



Final-Fan said:
o_O.Q said:

penguins have adapted wings, they do not have the same type of fins or flippers that dolphins or other aquatic animals have

"I don't think you'll find that he made the blanket assertion that there exist no groups into which animals can be sorted."

that is exactly what he said, go back and read his posts before you get involved and that is exactly why i responded in the way i did

1.  But you didn't call what dolphins have "paws" or "feet" or "legs".  You called them "fins or flippers".  If you do that, then you should not, I argue, call what penguins have "wings".  They adapted from wings, and from legs, into something that is different from wings or legs, but which is very similar to what the other aquatic species developed.  We (both you and I) call these fins or flippers. 

Let me put it this way:  Scientists believe that bats evolved from land-dwelling mammals.  Should we call what they use to fly "legs" because they were legs before they were wings, even though they are flying around on them?  Penguins used to have wings.  They evolved to have flippers.  Ostriches have vestigial wings because they apparently didn't need to fly anymore.  All they do now with them is balance and send social cues.  Penguins don't have vestigial wings.  They have a new thing that they use to move through the water instead of through the air.  They have flippers. 

2.  I did go back and read what he said.  What I found was not what you said, but something that I thought could potentially have been misinterpreted by a careless reader into something within a mile or two of what you said.  But I have been wrong before and I will be wrong in the future, and you can prove me wrong now:  go back and find the exact quote that is "exactly" the blanket assertion that there exist no groups into which animals can be sorted, and let me know what you find. 

3.  I ask you again:  what was the point of your question, "why don't elephants swim with fish in schools?"

"But you didn't call what dolphins have "paws" or "feet" or "legs".  You called them "fins or flippers".  If you do that, then you should not, I argue, call what penguins have "wings".  They adapted from wings, and from legs, into something that is different from wings or legs, but which is very similar to what the other aquatic species developed.  We (both you and I) call these fins or flippers.  "

do i really need to go into the fact that we use a group of criteria rather than one particular criteria? you know... penguins having beaks? feathers? laying eggs?

 

"I did go back and read what he said.  What I found was not what you said"

then you didn't look far enough

 

"what was the point of your question, "why don't elephants swim with fish in schools?""

i've addressed that multiple times in my posts... if you're too lazy to go and read the full context for the conversation yourself, then don't depend on me to do it for you




o_O.Q said:
Final-Fan said:

1.  But you didn't call what dolphins have "paws" or "feet" or "legs".  You called them "fins or flippers".  If you do that, then you should not, I argue, call what penguins have "wings".  They adapted from wings, and from legs, into something that is different from wings or legs, but which is very similar to what the other aquatic species developed.  We (both you and I) call these fins or flippers. 

Let me put it this way:  Scientists believe that bats evolved from land-dwelling mammals.  Should we call what they use to fly "legs" because they were legs before they were wings, even though they are flying around on them?  Penguins used to have wings.  They evolved to have flippers.  Ostriches have vestigial wings because they apparently didn't need to fly anymore.  All they do now with them is balance and send social cues.  Penguins don't have vestigial wings.  They have a new thing that they use to move through the water instead of through the air.  They have flippers. 

2.  I did go back and read what he said.  What I found was not what you said, but something that I thought could potentially have been misinterpreted by a careless reader into something within a mile or two of what you said.  But I have been wrong before and I will be wrong in the future, and you can prove me wrong now:  go back and find the exact quote that is "exactly" the blanket assertion that there exist no groups into which animals can be sorted, and let me know what you find. 

3.  I ask you again:  what was the point of your question, "why don't elephants swim with fish in schools?"

"But you didn't call what dolphins have "paws" or "feet" or "legs".  You called them "fins or flippers".  If you do that, then you should not, I argue, call what penguins have "wings".  They adapted from wings, and from legs, into something that is different from wings or legs, but which is very similar to what the other aquatic species developed.  We (both you and I) call these fins or flippers.  "

do i really need to go into the fact that we use a group of criteria rather than one particular criteria? you know... penguins having beaks? feathers? laying eggs?

"I did go back and read what he said.  What I found was not what you said"

then you didn't look far enough

"what was the point of your question, "why don't elephants swim with fish in schools?""

i've addressed that multiple times in my posts... if you're too lazy to go and read the full context for the conversation yourself, then don't depend on me to do it for you

1.  But do you concede that penguins do not have "wings" by any reasonable definition of the word?  If not, then please go back to my previous post (the one still inside the quote tree in this post) and reply to the points I made.  Or, I guess, you could say "I don't have an answer for what you said but I still disagree."  That's not cowardly; it's braver to admit what you don't know than to NOT admit to not knowing it. 

2.  I looked through the entire conversation between the two of you.  There is nowhere left to look.  You grossly misinterpreted his posts—prove me wrong. 

3.  I've seen the other arguments you put forth in respect to the topic this question was regarding, but that's different from you explaining what you actually meant when you asked it. 

Your question was asked in response to Filix's statement that "Living creatures aren't inherently divided into strict groups."  At a glance, he seems to have been attempting to explain to you that the gradualistic spectrum of differences between creatures that results from common descent and the processes of evolution results in there being all sorts of things on this planet, not all of which fit neatly into the categories that humans make up to try to keep it all straight in their minds.  Your rebuttal, originally posed as "so why don't tuna, elephants, lions and flamingos all swim in schools?" seems to be an attempt at a reductio ad absurdum argument, but it fails hilariously due to so completely missing the mark of the statement it was responding to.  Probably because you fundamentally misunderstood it. 

My question to you, "what did you mean by this?", was an attempt to get you to try to explicitly explain your objection to the original point in a way other than posing a reductio ad absurdum argument.  Your refusal to do so suggests that you cannot address the actual argument and thus create in your mind a strawman that you CAN knock down.  But the absolutely ridiculous thing about it is what a blatant strawman it is:  seemingly, "there is literally no difference between any living thing".  If I got that wrong, you can't blame me:  I tried my hardest to get you to elaborate. 



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Final-Fan said:
o_O.Q said:

penguins have adapted wings, they do not have the same type of fins or flippers that dolphins or other aquatic animals have

"I don't think you'll find that he made the blanket assertion that there exist no groups into which animals can be sorted."

that is exactly what he said, go back and read his posts before you get involved and that is exactly why i responded in the way i did

1.  But you didn't call what dolphins have "paws" or "feet" or "legs".  You called them "fins or flippers".  If you do that, then you should not, I argue, call what penguins have "wings".  They adapted from wings, and from legs, into something that is different from wings or legs, but which is very similar to what the other aquatic species developed.  We (both you and I) call these fins or flippers. 

Let me put it this way:  Scientists believe that bats evolved from land-dwelling mammals.  Should we call what they use to fly "legs" because they were legs before they were wings, even though they are flying around on them?  Penguins used to have wings.  They evolved to have flippers.  Ostriches have vestigial wings because they apparently didn't need to fly anymore.  All they do now with them is balance and send social cues.  Penguins don't have vestigial wings.  They have a new thing that they use to move through the water instead of through the air.  They have flippers. 

2.  I did go back and read what he said.  What I found was not what you said, but something that I thought could potentially have been misinterpreted by a careless reader into something within a mile or two of what you said.  But I have been wrong before and I will be wrong in the future, and you can prove me wrong now:  go back and find the exact quote that is "exactly" the blanket assertion that there exist no groups into which animals can be sorted, and let me know what you find. 

3.  I ask you again:  what was the point of your question, "why don't elephants swim with fish in schools?"

very informative but you have not disproved my argument that penguins have adapted wings... in fact you verified it here

"They adapted from wings, and from legs, into something that is different from wings or legs, but which is very similar to what the other aquatic species developed.  We (both you and I) call these fins or flippers.  "

"Penguins used to have wings.  They evolved to have flippers. "

 

" They adapted from wings, and from legs, into something that is different from wings or legs, but which is very similar to what the other aquatic species developed."

this is wrong, the adapted wings penguins have are covered in feathers... can you name another aquatic creature with feathers?

 

"Living creatures aren't inherently divided into strict groups. Scientists made these groups up, and adapted the definitions to their 'sources' ( = all creatures in existence)."

"I don't think you'll find that he made the blanket assertion that there exist no groups into which animals can be sorted."

why were you too lazy to go back through the thread and verify whether your claim was valid or not?

 

his claim above is why i asked the absurd question about whether elephants swim with fish or not... because its obvious that they do not... can you tell me why?

while you're at it tell me why elephants don't reproduce with lions or with gazelles

this has to be the most stupid discussion i've had in a long long time

Last edited by o_O.Q - on 28 February 2018

o_O.Q said:
Final-Fan said:

1.  But you didn't call what dolphins have "paws" or "feet" or "legs".  You called them "fins or flippers".  If you do that, then you should not, I argue, call what penguins have "wings".  They adapted from wings, and from legs, into something that is different from wings or legs, but which is very similar to what the other aquatic species developed.  We (both you and I) call these fins or flippers. 

Let me put it this way:  Scientists believe that bats evolved from land-dwelling mammals.  Should we call what they use to fly "legs" because they were legs before they were wings, even though they are flying around on them?  Penguins used to have wings.  They evolved to have flippers.  Ostriches have vestigial wings because they apparently didn't need to fly anymore.  All they do now with them is balance and send social cues.  Penguins don't have vestigial wings.  They have a new thing that they use to move through the water instead of through the air.  They have flippers. 

2.  I did go back and read what he said.  What I found was not what you said, but something that I thought could potentially have been misinterpreted by a careless reader into something within a mile or two of what you said.  But I have been wrong before and I will be wrong in the future, and you can prove me wrong now:  go back and find the exact quote that is "exactly" the blanket assertion that there exist no groups into which animals can be sorted, and let me know what you find. 

3.  I ask you again:  what was the point of your question, "why don't elephants swim with fish in schools?"

very informative but you have not disproved my argument that penguins have adapted wings... in fact you verified it here

"They adapted from wings, and from legs, into something that is different from wings or legs, but which is very similar to what the other aquatic species developed.  We (both you and I) call these fins or flippers.  "

"Penguins used to have wings.  They evolved to have flippers. "

 

" They adapted from wings, and from legs, into something that is different from wings or legs, but which is very similar to what the other aquatic species developed."

this is wrong, the adapted wings penguins have are covered in feathers... can you name another aquatic creature with feathers?

 

"Living creatures aren't inherently divided into strict groups. Scientists made these groups up, and adapted the definitions to their 'sources' ( = all creatures in existence)."

"I don't think you'll find that he made the blanket assertion that there exist no groups into which animals can be sorted."

why were you too lazy to go back through the thread and verify whether your claim was valid or not?

 

his claim above is why i asked the absurd question about whether elephants swim with fish or not... because its obvious that they do not... can you tell me why?

while you're at it tell me why elephants don't reproduce with lions or with gazelles

this has to be the most stupid discussion i've had in a long long time

1.  You didn't address my analogy to bats.  If it's true that penguins have "adapted wings" and not flippers, doesn't it also have to be true that bats have "adapted legs" and not wings?  If not, why not?  If so, doesn't that seem like a ridiculous position to you?  

To answer your "aquatic creature" question, I'm not sure—what do you define as an "aquatic creature"? 

2.  He speaks of two sorts of groups:  hypothetical "strict groups" that he asserts are not naturally generated, and human-made groups that "scientists made up" to organize the diversity of life into a structure that makes sense to humans, but which is not 100% perfect. 

You say you can satisfy the claim "he made the blanket assertion that there exist no groups" by pointing to the post where he said "scientists made these groups up".  At the very least, there is a serious miscommunication that is occurring somewhere here.  (Identifying what that miscommunication might be, so as to move past it to understanding, is more important than laying blame on one of the three of us for it.)

3.  Once again you simply reiterate your question as if you were using some kind of retard-mode Socratic method.  I will indulge you and answer your questions as requested.  Elephants do not swim with fish because elephants have evolved to be land dwellers, and fish have (for the most part, I think) evolved to be wary of large creatures splashing towards them.  Elephants do not reproduce with lions because their common ancestor is very far in the past and they have become genetically too different to produce offspring with each other. 



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That´s weird.... still... in my country, on the national census, the "race" (I mean "color") is defined by the citizen itself and not by the researcher or the research institute. So maybe it´s not a big deal.
As for the gender, then things may get really complicated, confusing and.... really really weird.



Final-Fan said:
o_O.Q said:

very informative but you have not disproved my argument that penguins have adapted wings... in fact you verified it here

"They adapted from wings, and from legs, into something that is different from wings or legs, but which is very similar to what the other aquatic species developed.  We (both you and I) call these fins or flippers.  "

"Penguins used to have wings.  They evolved to have flippers. "

 

" They adapted from wings, and from legs, into something that is different from wings or legs, but which is very similar to what the other aquatic species developed."

this is wrong, the adapted wings penguins have are covered in feathers... can you name another aquatic creature with feathers?

 

"Living creatures aren't inherently divided into strict groups. Scientists made these groups up, and adapted the definitions to their 'sources' ( = all creatures in existence)."

"I don't think you'll find that he made the blanket assertion that there exist no groups into which animals can be sorted."

why were you too lazy to go back through the thread and verify whether your claim was valid or not?

 

his claim above is why i asked the absurd question about whether elephants swim with fish or not... because its obvious that they do not... can you tell me why?

while you're at it tell me why elephants don't reproduce with lions or with gazelles

this has to be the most stupid discussion i've had in a long long time

1.  You didn't address my analogy to bats.  If it's true that penguins have "adapted wings" and not flippers, doesn't it also have to be true that bats have "adapted legs" and not wings?  If not, why not?  If so, doesn't that seem like a ridiculous position to you?  

To answer your "aquatic creature" question, I'm not sure—what do you define as an "aquatic creature"? 

2.  He speaks of two sorts of groups:  hypothetical "strict groups" that he asserts are not naturally generated, and human-made groups that "scientists made up" to organize the diversity of life into a structure that makes sense to humans, but which is not 100% perfect. 

You say you can satisfy the claim "he made the blanket assertion that there exist no groups" by pointing to the post where he said "scientists made these groups up".  At the very least, there is a serious miscommunication that is occurring somewhere here.  (Identifying what that miscommunication might be, so as to move past it to understanding, is more important than laying blame on one of the three of us for it.)

3.  Once again you simply reiterate your question as if you were using some kind of retard-mode Socratic method.  I will indulge you and answer your questions as requested.  Elephants do not swim with fish because elephants have evolved to be land dwellers, and fish have (for the most part, I think) evolved to be wary of large creatures splashing towards them.  Elephants do not reproduce with lions because their common ancestor is very far in the past and they have become genetically too different to produce offspring with each other. 

"You didn't address my analogy to bats.  If it's true that penguins have "adapted wings" and not flippers, doesn't it also have to be true that bats have "adapted legs" and not wings?  If not, why not?  If so, doesn't that seem like a ridiculous position to you?"

i didn't say that you were wrong... if you want to say that bats have adapted legs then so be it since its a fact

 

"He speaks of two sorts of groups:..."

look the point i'm making, is that this:

"Living creatures aren't inherently divided into strict groups"

is an absolutely insane claim to make, because we can see for example that elephants do not swim in fish schools...

there is a strict division between fish and elephants, get it?

i made such a ridiculous example because i couldn't really believe i was seeing what he was posting

and obviously you are quite clearly wrong here : "I don't think you'll find that he made the blanket assertion that there exist no groups into which animals can be sorted."

 

" At the very least, there is a serious miscommunication that is occurring somewhere here."

no there's not, i quite clearly laid things out 

if you're still having difficulty parsing things, well at this point i can't help you... i can't really make it any simpler

 

"I will indulge you and answer your questions as requested."

to begin with i never had any questions for you, from the beginning you started this conversation with a misunderstanding of its context

that's how we got to where we are now

 

"Elephants do not swim with fish because elephants have evolved to be land dwellers, and fish have (for the most part, I think) evolved to be wary of large creatures splashing towards them."

congratulations, you finally got the point... i think



o_O.Q said:
Final-Fan said:

1.  You didn't address my analogy to bats.  If it's true that penguins have "adapted wings" and not flippers, doesn't it also have to be true that bats have "adapted legs" and not wings?  If not, why not?  If so, doesn't that seem like a ridiculous position to you?  

To answer your "aquatic creature" question, I'm not sure—what do you define as an "aquatic creature"? 

2.  He speaks of two sorts of groups:  hypothetical "strict groups" that he asserts are not naturally generated, and human-made groups that "scientists made up" to organize the diversity of life into a structure that makes sense to humans, but which is not 100% perfect. 

You say you can satisfy the claim "he made the blanket assertion that there exist no groups" by pointing to the post where he said "scientists made these groups up".  At the very least, there is a serious miscommunication that is occurring somewhere here.  (Identifying what that miscommunication might be, so as to move past it to understanding, is more important than laying blame on one of the three of us for it.)

3.  Once again you simply reiterate your question as if you were using some kind of retard-mode Socratic method.  I will indulge you and answer your questions as requested.  Elephants do not swim with fish because elephants have evolved to be land dwellers, and fish have (for the most part, I think) evolved to be wary of large creatures splashing towards them.  Elephants do not reproduce with lions because their common ancestor is very far in the past and they have become genetically too different to produce offspring with each other. 

"You didn't address my analogy to bats.  If it's true that penguins have "adapted wings" and not flippers, doesn't it also have to be true that bats have "adapted legs" and not wings?  If not, why not?  If so, doesn't that seem like a ridiculous position to you?"

i didn't say that you were wrong... if you want to say that bats have adapted legs then so be it since its a fact

 

"He speaks of two sorts of groups:..."

look the point i'm making, is that this:

"Living creatures aren't inherently divided into strict groups"

is an absolutely insane claim to make, because we can see for example that elephants do not swim in fish schools...

there is a strict division between fish and elephants, get it?

i made such a ridiculous example because i couldn't really believe i was seeing what he was posting

and obviously you are quite clearly wrong here : "I don't think you'll find that he made the blanket assertion that there exist no groups into which animals can be sorted."

 

" At the very least, there is a serious miscommunication that is occurring somewhere here."

no there's not, i quite clearly laid things out 

if you're still having difficulty parsing things, well at this point i can't help you... i can't really make it any simpler

 

"I will indulge you and answer your questions as requested."

to begin with i never had any questions for you, from the beginning you started this conversation with a misunderstanding of its context

that's how we got to where we are now

 

"Elephants do not swim with fish because elephants have evolved to be land dwellers, and fish have (for the most part, I think) evolved to be wary of large creatures splashing towards them."

congratulations, you finally got the point... i think

1.  OK, so if bats have evolved legs instead of wings, then birds have evolved legs instead of wings, too, correct?  After all, they evolved their so-called wings from legs as well. 

2.  What exactly are your "strict groups" defining?  What is being separated and delineated? 

3.  Although there are certainly populations that have been separated morphologically, genetically, reproduction-wise, etc., it is important to remember that they are all part of a continuum connected in the past via common ancestry.  So the elephant doesn't swim with the fish, but perhaps the hippopotamus's great-to-the-millionth grandfather and the whale's were the same creature.  So if you say you can identify natural groups that 100% separate these creatures, surely this must be applicable to past species as well, right?  Where do you draw the line on the continuum? 

Where is the line between red and yellow? 


Or do you just mean that because of the built-up differences over time, you are fine with the human-oriented groupings?  (In other words, a lot of the "reddish-yellowish" stuff is safely in the past, so there are many cases where we can get away with saying this bunch is "red" and this bunch is "yellow".) 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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