the-pi-guy said:
fatslob-:O said:
No, no ...
What is "meaningful" is purely subjective and there is a valid evolutionary history as outlined by Rosenberg to biologically group these human populations ...
The so called "criteria" is worthless too if these exceptions exist hence why there is no "hard" rule as to how groups may be defined ...
And it's not up to Marxist ideologists like yourself to determine what the scientific community can or can't rule ... (that is why liberals are dishonest when it comes to the subject of genetics and should just stick to just climate science and it should instead be the alt-right that funds genetics research more often)
As for your other half of the paragraph and independent study published by the APA says https://www.mensa.ch/sites/default/files/Intelligence_Neisser1996.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca">otherwise ...
This is not entirely true, there are most definitely fertile offsprings produced by 2 different species such as the polar bear/grizzly and let's not forget that humans used to do interspecies breeding with the Homo Neanderthalensis and possibly the Homo Erectus. It's one of the many reasons why geneticists are able to order populations such as those with Sub-Saharan ancestry having the least amount of neanderthal DNA while those with East Asians/Oceania ancestry have the highest concentrations of neanderthal DNA ...
If the concept of human race couldn't be biologically ordered then then there wouldn't any evidence for it and it would be the end of discussion but what's more is that the vast majority of current evidence so far has yet to be discredited ...
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It's entirely arguable whether neanderthalensis and homo sapiens are considered to be separate species.
Which is why some call them homo sapiens neanderthalensis.
https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/39664/how-could-humans-have-interbred-with-neanderthals-if-were-a-different-species
"Short answer
The concept of species is poorly defined and is often misleading. The concept of lineage is much more helpful. IMO, the only usefulness of this poorly defined concept that is the "species" is to have a common vocabulary for naming lineages.
Note that Homo neanderthalis is sometimes (although it is rare) called H. sapiens neanderthalisthough highlighting that some would consider neanderthals and modern humans as being part of the same species.
Long answer
Are neanderthals and modern humans really considered different species?
Often, yes they are considered as different species, neanderthals being called Homo neanderthalisand modern humans are being called Homo sapiens. However, some authors prefer to call neanderthals Homo sapiens neanderthalis and modern humans Homo sapiens sapiens, putting both lineages in the same species (but different subspecies).
How common were interbreeding between H. sapiens and H. neanderthalis
Please, have a look at @iayork's answer.
The rest of the post is here to highlight that whether you consider H. sapiens and H. neanderthalisto be the same species or not is mainly a matter of personal preference given that the concept of species is mainly arbitrary.
Short history of the concept of species
To my knowledge, the concept of species has first been used in the antiquity. At this time, most people viewed species as a fixed entities, unable to change through time and without within population variance (see Aristotle and Plato's thoughts). For some reason we stuck to this concept even though it sometimes appears to not be very useful.
Charles Darwin already understood that as he says in On the Origin of Species (see here)
Certainly no clear line of demarcation has as yet been drawn between species and sub-species- that is, the forms which in the opinion of some naturalists come very near to, but do not quite arrive at the rank of species; or, again, between sub-species and well-marked varieties, or between lesser varieties and individual differences. These differences blend into each other in an insensible series; and a series impresses the mind with the idea of an actual passage.
You might also want to have a look at the post Why are there species instead of a continuum of various animals?
Several definitions of species
There are several definitions of species that yield me once again to argue that we should rather forget about this concept and just use the term lineage and use accurate description of the reproductive barriers or genetic/functional divergence between lineage rather than using this made-up word that is "species".
I will below discuss the most commonly used definition (the one you cite) that is called the Biological species concept.
Problems with the definition you cite
A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms where two hybrids are capable of reproducing fertile offspring, typically using sexual reproduction.
Only applies to species that reproduce sexually
Of course, this definition only applies to lineages that use sexual reproduction. If we were to use this definition for asexual lineages, then every single individual would be its own species.
In practice
In general, everybody refers to this definition when talking about sexual lineages but IMO few people are correctly applying for practical reasons of communicating effectively.
How low the fitness of the hybrids need to be?
One has to arbitrarily define a limit of the minimal fitness (or maximal outbreeding depression) to get an accurate definition. Such boundary can be defined in absolute terms or in relative terms (relative to the fitness of the "parent lineages"). If, the hybrid has a fitness that is 100 times lower than any of the two parent lineages, then would you consider the two parent lineages to belong to the same species?"
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2010/05/pizzly_bears.html
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