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Forums - Politics Discussion - Delaware students can now choose their own race (Yes, RACE!) under new regulations.

Aeolus451 said:
SuaveSocialist said:

Actually, the amount I mentioned is accurate.  18 rounds up to 20 (and I said, QUOTE: "about 20", you can scroll up and see for yourself) , and there have been 18 verified school shootings in the US as of Feb 20th.

https://www.abc15.com/news/data/school-shootings-in-u-s-when-where-each-shooting-has-occurred-in-2018

Those are not the actual number of school shootings in the way people think of school shootings

I'm not the arbiter of what people think and neither are you.  If you are upset that news organizations record verifiable information to a different standard than you'd like, that is your problem, not mine.  I stand by my vetted figure but will gladly change it if a new standard dictates how information is reported.  Call it "18 separate incidents involving unlawful discharge of firearms on the property of education centres in America" if it really means so much to you.  My original context remains unchanged, and everything I've claimed has been independently verified.  



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SuaveSocialist said:
Aeolus451 said:

Those are not the actual number of school shootings in the way people think of school shootings

I'm not the arbiter of what people think and neither are you.  If you are upset that news organizations record verifiable information to a different standard than you'd like, that is your problem, not mine.  I stand by my vetted figure but will gladly change it if a new standard dictates how information is reported.  Call it "18 separate incidents involving unlawful discharge of firearms on the property of education centres in America" if it really means so much to you.  My original context remains unchanged, and everything I've claimed has been independently verified.  

It's fake news when they misrepresent facts to fit a narrative.



Pathetic world we live in now. Back in the good old days, idiots like that would get their teeth kicked in.



the-pi-guy said:
fatslob-:O said:

No, no ... 

What is "meaningful" is purely subjective and there is a valid evolutionary history as outlined by Rosenberg to biologically group these human populations ... 

The so called "criteria" is worthless too if these exceptions exist hence why there is no "hard" rule as to how groups may be defined ... 

And it's not up to Marxist ideologists like yourself to determine what the scientific community can or can't rule ... (that is why liberals are dishonest when it comes to the subject of genetics and should just stick to just climate science and it should instead be the alt-right that funds genetics research more often)

As for your other half of the paragraph and independent study published by the APA says https://www.mensa.ch/sites/default/files/Intelligence_Neisser1996.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca">otherwise ... 


This is not entirely true, there are most definitely fertile offsprings produced by 2 different species such as the polar bear/grizzly and let's not forget that humans used to do interspecies breeding with the Homo Neanderthalensis and possibly the Homo Erectus. It's one of the many reasons why geneticists are able to order populations such as those with Sub-Saharan ancestry having the least amount of neanderthal DNA while those with East Asians/Oceania ancestry have the highest concentrations of neanderthal DNA ... 

If the concept of human race couldn't be biologically ordered then then there wouldn't any evidence for it and it would be the end of discussion but what's more is that the vast majority of current evidence so far has yet to be discredited ... 

It's entirely arguable whether neanderthalensis and homo sapiens are considered to be separate species.  

Which is why some call them homo sapiens neanderthalensis.  

https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/39664/how-could-humans-have-interbred-with-neanderthals-if-were-a-different-species

"Short answer

The concept of species is poorly defined and is often misleading. The concept of lineage is much more helpful. IMO, the only usefulness of this poorly defined concept that is the "species" is to have a common vocabulary for naming lineages.

Note that Homo neanderthalis is sometimes (although it is rare) called H. sapiens neanderthalisthough highlighting that some would consider neanderthals and modern humans as being part of the same species.

Long answer

Are neanderthals and modern humans really considered different species?

Often, yes they are considered as different species, neanderthals being called Homo neanderthalisand modern humans are being called Homo sapiens. However, some authors prefer to call neanderthals Homo sapiens neanderthalis and modern humans Homo sapiens sapiens, putting both lineages in the same species (but different subspecies).

How common were interbreeding between H. sapiens and H. neanderthalis

Please, have a look at @iayork's answer.

The rest of the post is here to highlight that whether you consider H. sapiens and H. neanderthalisto be the same species or not is mainly a matter of personal preference given that the concept of species is mainly arbitrary.

Short history of the concept of species

To my knowledge, the concept of species has first been used in the antiquity. At this time, most people viewed species as a fixed entities, unable to change through time and without within population variance (see Aristotle and Plato's thoughts). For some reason we stuck to this concept even though it sometimes appears to not be very useful.

Charles Darwin already understood that as he says in On the Origin of Species (see here)

Certainly no clear line of demarcation has as yet been drawn between species and sub-species- that is, the forms which in the opinion of some naturalists come very near to, but do not quite arrive at the rank of species; or, again, between sub-species and well-marked varieties, or between lesser varieties and individual differences. These differences blend into each other in an insensible series; and a series impresses the mind with the idea of an actual passage.

You might also want to have a look at the post Why are there species instead of a continuum of various animals?

Several definitions of species

There are several definitions of species that yield me once again to argue that we should rather forget about this concept and just use the term lineage and use accurate description of the reproductive barriers or genetic/functional divergence between lineage rather than using this made-up word that is "species".

I will below discuss the most commonly used definition (the one you cite) that is called the Biological species concept.

Problems with the definition you cite

A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms where two hybrids are capable of reproducing fertile offspring, typically using sexual reproduction.

Only applies to species that reproduce sexually

Of course, this definition only applies to lineages that use sexual reproduction. If we were to use this definition for asexual lineages, then every single individual would be its own species.

In practice

In general, everybody refers to this definition when talking about sexual lineages but IMO few people are correctly applying for practical reasons of communicating effectively.

How low the fitness of the hybrids need to be?

One has to arbitrarily define a limit of the minimal fitness (or maximal outbreeding depression) to get an accurate definition. Such boundary can be defined in absolute terms or in relative terms (relative to the fitness of the "parent lineages"). If, the hybrid has a fitness that is 100 times lower than any of the two parent lineages, then would you consider the two parent lineages to belong to the same species?"

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2010/05/pizzly_bears.html

 

Good post from the-pi-guy! Nice shades of grey :D

And nice to know that fatslob thinks that I am marxist ideologist :D I don´t really know why that is? Maybe fatslob knows more than I do? Did you secretly take a dna sample to see whether I´m more "western" finn or "eastern" finn? Or how did you make that assumption?

I think that science should be done objectively and not to suit some agenda. The whole race thing should maybe be taken out of taxonomy and replaced with another word, as it creates too many misunderstanding etc.

Maybe race as a social construct has too much influence and differiating biology and social construct of race seems to be hard. If we would go by genes and to force some sort biological races of white, black, asian etc. then many blacks would be white and many whites would be black and so on. It would not match our perception of races that well, especially in USA (where race seem to be of importance).



SuaveSocialist said:
Aeolus451 said:

Those are not the actual number of school shootings in the way people think of school shootings

I'm not the arbiter of what people think and neither are you.  If you are upset that news organizations record verifiable information to a different standard than you'd like, that is your problem, not mine.  I stand by my vetted figure but will gladly change it if a new standard dictates how information is reported.  Call it "18 separate incidents involving unlawful discharge of firearms on the property of education centres in America" if it really means so much to you.  My original context remains unchanged, and everything I've claimed has been independently verified.  

When I side with Aeolus against you—and I am—you ought to re-examine your position.  For one thing, the word "shoot" usually implies a target.  Therefore, it's a stretch IMO to call accidental weapon discharge that hurts nobody a "shooting".  To equate what you are now prepared to call "unlawful discharge of firearms on school property" with "school shooting" is therefore, in my eyes, hopelessly naive at best and intentionally deceptive at worst.  That changes the context. 

Last edited by Final-Fan - on 26 February 2018

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o_O.Q said:
Final-Fan said:

Compare the things penguins have to the things dolphins have.  Then sea turtles.  Now compare the things penguins have to the things ducks have.  Which is more different?  Or if you don't like the clear answer eyeballs can give then you can turn to expert opinion ... Do Penguins have Wings?  (Hint: flippers)

I don't think you'll find that he made the blanket assertion that there exist no groups into which animals can be sorted.  He's saying that there are a lot of everyday groupings that on close scientific examination actually have fuzzy gray areas for borders.  Additionally, he's saying that through "common descent", there is no sudden breakpoint where whales popped into existence where no such creature existed before; it was all gradual differences and thus Ancestor Species A and Descendant Species B is just a human distinction when the millions of generations are collectively just a relatively smooth transition.  There was never a female clearly of species A (not B) that gave birth to a baby clearly of species B (not A). 

None of the above has any resemblance to "elephants swimming with fish" which, if true, is meaningless to the discussion; and, if false, is also meaningless to the discussion. 

I ask you again:  what was the point of your question, "why don't elephants swim with fish in schools?"

penguins have adapted wings, they do not have the same type of fins or flippers that dolphins or other aquatic animals have

"I don't think you'll find that he made the blanket assertion that there exist no groups into which animals can be sorted."

that is exactly what he said, go back and read his posts before you get involved and that is exactly why i responded in the way i did

1.  But you didn't call what dolphins have "paws" or "feet" or "legs".  You called them "fins or flippers".  If you do that, then you should not, I argue, call what penguins have "wings".  They adapted from wings, and from legs, into something that is different from wings or legs, but which is very similar to what the other aquatic species developed.  We (both you and I) call these fins or flippers. 

Let me put it this way:  Scientists believe that bats evolved from land-dwelling mammals.  Should we call what they use to fly "legs" because they were legs before they were wings, even though they are flying around on them?  Penguins used to have wings.  They evolved to have flippers.  Ostriches have vestigial wings because they apparently didn't need to fly anymore.  All they do now with them is balance and send social cues.  Penguins don't have vestigial wings.  They have a new thing that they use to move through the water instead of through the air.  They have flippers. 

2.  I did go back and read what he said.  What I found was not what you said, but something that I thought could potentially have been misinterpreted by a careless reader into something within a mile or two of what you said.  But I have been wrong before and I will be wrong in the future, and you can prove me wrong now:  go back and find the exact quote that is "exactly" the blanket assertion that there exist no groups into which animals can be sorted, and let me know what you find. 

3.  I ask you again:  what was the point of your question, "why don't elephants swim with fish in schools?"



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan said:
SuaveSocialist said:

I'm not the arbiter of what people think and neither are you.  If you are upset that news organizations record verifiable information to a different standard than you'd like, that is your problem, not mine.  I stand by my vetted figure but will gladly change it if a new standard dictates how information is reported.  Call it "18 separate incidents involving unlawful discharge of firearms on the property of education centres in America" if it really means so much to you.  My original context remains unchanged, and everything I've claimed has been independently verified.  

is therefore, in my eyes, 

Your eyes are not the arbiter of the way things are and neither are mine. 

"If you are upset that news organizations record verifiable information to a different standard than you'd like, that is your problem, not mine.  I stand by my vetted figure but will gladly change it if a new standard dictates how information is reported."  --Literally a segment that you responded to.

I am guessing that you missed that important part, considering you relied on "your eyes" instead of a standard for reporting.



SuaveSocialist said:
Final-Fan said:

is therefore, in my eyes, 

Your eyes are not the arbiter of the way things are and neither are mine. 

"If you are upset that news organizations record verifiable information to a different standard than you'd like, that is your problem, not mine.  I stand by my vetted figure but will gladly change it if a new standard dictates how information is reported."  --Literally a segment that you responded to.

I am guessing that you missed that important part, considering you relied on "your eyes" instead of a standard for reporting.

Let me put it this way:  if someone asked you, "Did you hear about the school shooting that just happened in our town?", would you reply, "Oh no!  Was anyone hurt?"



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan said:
SuaveSocialist said:

I'm not the arbiter of what people think and neither are you.  If you are upset that news organizations record verifiable information to a different standard than you'd like, that is your problem, not mine.  I stand by my vetted figure but will gladly change it if a new standard dictates how information is reported.  Call it "18 separate incidents involving unlawful discharge of firearms on the property of education centres in America" if it really means so much to you.  My original context remains unchanged, and everything I've claimed has been independently verified.  

When I side with Aeolus against you—and I am—you ought to re-examine your position.  For one thing, the word "shoot" usually implies a target.  Therefore, it's a stretch IMO to call accidental weapon discharge that hurts nobody a "shooting".  To equate what you are now prepared to call "unlawful discharge of firearms on school property" with "school shooting" is therefore, in my eyes, hopelessly naive at best and intentionally deceptive at worst.  That changes the context. 

Well, I'll be damned. 👍

With anything as serious as shootings, you'd think presenting events and stats accurately would be important.



Unique snowflakes jump and down and make lots of noise and can make law changes. Laws are now being made to not upset the feelings of unique snowflakes or laws to give minority groups special rights. Under a democratic system, laws are made for the majority of citizens. It is not a democratic system where small groups of trouble makers can make law changes through protests.