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Forums - Politics Discussion - School Shooting in South Florida

As a European I just can't fathom these things. To us it seems so clear how to prevent this, just stop with the guns. Thoughts go out to the parents of those lost. Can't imagine what it would be like to watch your child leave for something as innocent as school in the morning and then hearing about him/her never coming back.



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Hiku said:
dirtylemons said:

Because even the most conservative estimates indicate that several times more people use firearms defensively than are murdered with them.

That doesn't answer the question of why many people lack compassion until it happens to them.
But on that subject, people use firearms defensively against what? Against other guns. Or the prospect of other guns.

In a country where guns are banned, a burglar for example is not expecting to encounter a gun, so they don't bring one. Because they're not there to murder anyone. They just want to steal their TV and get out.
But in a country where guns are common in homes, you bring your own gun for "safety".

And that's only talking about people with malicious intent.
In 2008, 587 people died in the US from just ACCIDENTALLY discharging a firearm.
It would take Japan around 60 years to even have that many gun related deaths. Including homicide, suicide and accidents.
Japan had 6 gun related deaths in total in 2014: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/10/03/national/strict-gun-laws-mean-japan-sees-fewer-shooting-deaths/#.Wm2bPGnwaos
And that was a bad year for them. In 2006 for example, they only had 2. One year when they had 21, it became a huge nation wide scandal.
But let's focus on the higher than usual number. If you account for population difference, they would have had 9 gun related deaths in 2014 if they had USA's population. How many did USA have that year? 33,599. That's around a 3600:1 difference with the same population. And around a third of those 33k were homicides.
That's not normal for a non-third world country.

Of course Japan is different from the US, but that's not a reason to not do anything meaningful. Creating gun free zones in certain areas like schools will do little to nothing, if gun access isn't restricted outside of those areas. It could even have the the adverse effect.
Talking about Australia or the UK is more interesting though, since they originally had more guns in circulation before their gun reform, and saw drastic decline in gun violence across the board, while non-gun related homicides didn't increase.

as the Washington Post’s Wonkblog pointed out in August, homicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicides.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/16/gun_control_after_connecticut_shooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html

A US citizen's view of "defense" and what is necessary to protect yourself is very different from how people in other countries think.
I have a friend in Japan who keeps her front door open late into the night because her cat likes to go in and out at late hours. And I have friends in the US who think the government will come for them the moment they surrender their assault rifles. Very different world.

People often change their views when something happen which challenges their preconceived notions. Just as many people toughen their stance on gun regulations after suffering a tragedy, others become more supportive of gun rights once they've found themselves unarmed in a dangerous situation. I wouldn't say one is inherently better than the other.

Okay, you brought up banning guns, so I'm going to take that to its logical conclusion. Right now, the U.S. is a hub for the illegal sale of firearms. If you crack down on legal firearms before you've decimated the black market for them, do you think the violence rate will rise or drop? Would you say that a spike in violence would be worth tightening regulations or outright banning firearms?

Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world, so it's not just guns. And unless your solution is to transform the United States into Japan, I don't think their impressive lack of crime really helps at all.
I also think Australia and the United Kingdom, like Japan, aren't very good comparisons, because they are island nations, not directly connected to any countries with high homicide rates. Unlike the U.S., which is part of the same land as Mexico and Central and South America. These areas contain the highest murder rates in the world.

And yes, it is sensible to view countries differently for the very simple reason that they are different. Leaving your door open in the U.S. is much more likely to lead to some sort of violation than doing the same in Japan.



Nymeria said:
After Sandy Hook I realized it won't change as long as the people in power stay there. Once children being murdered didn't move the needle, the die was cast. It's become so routine there seems to be little point to even discuss the matter. Shootings happen, mass shootings happen, school shootings happen, it is part of American life.

If it really bothers people show up and vote for representatives that will do something. Until then the empty thoughts and prayers pale to the acceptance that this is accepted. It will happen again this year and the whole pointless cycle will repeat.

Can you imagine if after September 11th we simply said, "No reason to do anything rash like invade multiple countries, spend trillions of dollars, and lead to death of hundreds of thousands. Thoughts and prayers will suffice, now move on."

And what will representatives do now which they apparently failed to do in their careers up to this point? Murder and gun crime are both on the decline, so what is it you want to happen?



S.Peelman said:
As a European I just can't fathom these things. To us it seems so clear how to prevent this, just stop with the guns. Thoughts go out to the parents of those lost. Can't imagine what it would be like to watch your child leave for something as innocent as school in the morning and then hearing about him/her never coming back.

What do you do about the car attacks in Europe? One method replaces another method?



dirtylemons said:
Nymeria said:
After Sandy Hook I realized it won't change as long as the people in power stay there. Once children being murdered didn't move the needle, the die was cast. It's become so routine there seems to be little point to even discuss the matter. Shootings happen, mass shootings happen, school shootings happen, it is part of American life.

If it really bothers people show up and vote for representatives that will do something. Until then the empty thoughts and prayers pale to the acceptance that this is accepted. It will happen again this year and the whole pointless cycle will repeat.

Can you imagine if after September 11th we simply said, "No reason to do anything rash like invade multiple countries, spend trillions of dollars, and lead to death of hundreds of thousands. Thoughts and prayers will suffice, now move on."

And what will representatives do now which they apparently failed to do in their careers up to this point? Murder and gun crime are both on the decline, so what is it you want to happen?

They will do nothing, we know this.  I'd like them to either pass legislation attempting to address the issue or state they are content with the present situation.  Stop empty statements about gun control or mental health issues and then forget the next day.  

I would like our rates to be in line with Canada, Australia, and the United Kingdom within the next ten years.  We should learn from countries that do better than us to help us in facets of society to be better.  



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Nighthawk117 said:
super_etecoon said:

Could you please quote here the relevant section?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.[92]

The Second Amendment protects the individual right to keep and bear arms.

Actually this is not totally correct.  The Supreme court already stated that the Constitution does not give individuals the right to bare arms.  Look up United States vs Cruikshank(1876).  

Snipit from the ruling

The Justices stated "The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The Second Amendment means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress, and has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the National Government."[5]

 

The right there specified is that of "bearing arms for a lawful purpose." This is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed, but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress. This is one of the amendments that has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the national government, leaving the people to look for their protection against any violation by their fellow citizens of the rights it recognizes, to what is called, in The City of New York v. Miln, 11 Pet. 139, the "powers which relate to merely municipal legislation, or what was, perhaps, more properly called internal police," "not surrendered or restrained" by the Constitution of the United States.[5]

There is a more recent case United States vs Miller(1939).

Basically, the national government cannot restrict your rights to bear arms but your state and local government can.  Its down to the state level on what they want to restrict or allow.  There are actually 6 states that actually has no constitutional right to keep and bear arms.



Pavolink said:
You failed. 9m.
You failed me.

 

numberwang said:

If you want to make it politically you would have to ban Assault Democrats. Most of the countryside is murder free.

Murders in US very concentrated: 54% of US counties in 2014 had zero murders, 2% of counties have 51% of the murders

https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/

There are more murders in cities with huge populations than murders in the countryside with low ones? Who would have thought?! 

 

Jesus some of you are just not even trying.



Bajablo said:
dirtylemons said:

The firearm statistics are from gunpolicy.org and the homicide rates are according to the United Nations.
As I mentioned in another post, the U.S. has more guns than it does cars, yet more people die in automobile-related incidents than firearm-related ones, more people use guns for self-defense than to commit murder and the most liberal estimates I've seen of how many legally acquired firearms are used to commit murder weren't much more than ten percent. All of the above suggests to me that simply tightening the existing regulations (at the very least) will not lead to a dramatic drop in violence, and could even potentially lead to the opposite.

Edit: f*ck it.. lets link the whole thing

A lot of people bring up Australia's gun ban as an example of this implementation working, yet ignore the fact that crime rates actually spiked immediately after the ban, and only dropped significantly almost a decade later. That's still a good thing, and I get that Jeffries is a comedian, but I also think it's an oversight.

Sorry, I've seen this bit before, and it's a bit difficult to deconstruct because I know Jeffries is a comedian, so I want to give him the benefit of the doubt that he's intentionally being simplistic in his arguments. The notion that the only argument for owning a gun is, "Fuck off, I like guns." sounds funny and may even ring true. But as I've brought up before, more people in the U.S. protect themselves with guns than commit murder with guns. So clearly this is not the case. Ironically, Jeffries says this right after claiming he is "not for(...)bullshit arguments.", which I would say his claim is.

He goes after the term 'assault rifles', but the name doesn't change the function.
He correctly points out that people are more likely to use guns on themselves than on others, but of course less than one percent of the guns in the U.S. will be used for any illicit purpose, unlike what Jeffries makes it sound like.
He mocks gun enthusiasts for their hobby, but this isn't a point for or against gun ownership, it's just a jab.
He mocks gun owners for locking their guns up and claiming to be responsible for this, but then claims a locked-away gun would do no good. Again ignoring the dozens of thousands who do just this.
Yet again, Jeffries mocks the idea of armed teachers and school security guards stopping a potential mass shooting, ignoring that this has already happened.
He then spends a minute going after a caricature he just made up of people who disagree with him. Also pulling out the nonsense idea that people native to a land are not actually native unless their earliest ancestors were also from the same land.
I actually don't disagree with what he says about the U.S. Constitution and the Second Amendment. I'm not a constitutionalist.
A gross oversimplification of the Civil War.
I disagree with his comparison of drug use and speeding. People should have the right to take all the drugs they want, because they're only directly affecting themselves. But speeding is something that clearly endangers others.

"This is a comedy show and it's not to be taken seriously."



Hiku said:
dirtylemons said:

A US citizen's view of "defense" and what is necessary to protect yourself is very different from how people in other countries think.
I have a friend in Japan who keeps her front door open late into the night because her cat likes to go in and out at late hours. And I have friends in the US who think the government will come for them the moment they surrender their assault rifles. Very different world.

Its like that where I live (though not everywhere in denmark is, but alot of places are).

To me thought of everyone owning a gun just doesnt make any sense.

Last edited by JRPGfan - on 15 February 2018

Hiku said:
Bajablo said:

Edit: f*ck it.. lets link the whole thing


Provocative images, but gun crime has consistently been on the decline for over two decades now. Would you say we're moving in the wrong direction?