Forums - Politics Discussion - The Russian Debate

McDonaldsGuy said:

Here is Robert Mueller stating Saddam had WMDs and had the will to use them against the U.S. and her allies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FWSnMNt0bM

This is Iraq WMD lies 2.0 and my mind is blown people are falling for it. Do we forget how much the Democrats worshipped Russia in 2012?

Romney, who calls Russia our "No. 1 geopolitical foe," doesn't seem to realize it's the 21st century. #RomneyNotReady


- The Democrats -

After all, you don't call Russia our No. 1 enemy -- not Al-Qaida, Russia -- unless you're still stuck in a Cold War mind warp.


- Barack Obama at the 2012 DNC - http://www.npr.org/2012/09/06/160713941/transcript-president-obamas-convention-speech

You (Romney) said Russia (was our no. 1 enemy), in the 1980s, they're now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because, you know, the Cold War's been over for 20 years. But Governor, when it comes to our foreign policy, you seem to want to import the foreign policies of the 1980s.


-  Barack Obama during 2012 Presidential debate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS2a44F5TgM)

"Mitt Romney talks like he's seen Russia by watching Rocky IV.


The DNC even made a poster mocking Romney about watching Rocky IV to get his foreign policy: https://theintercept.com/wp-uploads/sites/1/2016/09/romneykerry.jpg

- John Kerry at the 2012 DNC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgUyqLrgO7Q

Its someone dated to be looking backwards.


- Then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton on Romney's views on Russia http://www.redstate.com/erick/2014/03/04/hillary-clinton-mocked-romney-on-russia-then-goes-to-hitler-comparisons/

Vice President Joe Biden assailed Mitt Romney as “fundamentally wrong” and “totally out of touch” on foreign policy in a campaign speech Thursday — contrasting that to a record of President Barack Obama’s tough but right choices.

Drawing contrasts between President Barack Obama and comments Romney has made on the campaign trail in 2008 and this year, Biden attacked the former Massachusetts governor for being “one of a small group of Cold War holdovers,” for naming Russia as a major threat to the United States and at times referring to Soviets.

"I don’t know whether it’s a slip of the tongue or a mind-set … Everybody slips. I never do, but everyone does,” Biden said in a self-deprecating nod to his own gaffes.[/quote]

-  Then VP Joe Biden http://www.politico.com/story/2012/04/biden-assails-mocks-romney-on-foreign-policy-075653

VLADIVOSTOK, Russia — President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia sauntered into American presidential politics on Thursday, praising President Obama as “a very honest man” and chastising the Republican nominee, Mitt Romney, for describing Russia as “without question our No. 1 geopolitical foe.”[/quote]
- The New York Times September 2012 archive.is/IsUS9

After the election I have more flexibility.


- Obama to Russia/Putin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsFR8DbSRQE

Trade With Russia Is a Win-Win. By making Moscow a normal trading partner, Congress would create American jobs and advance human rights.


- Secretary of State Hillary Clinton https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303836404577475061208876588

Sure, let's just ignore the past 6 years then.  

Americans as a whole, have been incredibly critical of Russia ever since they annexed Crimea in 2014.  

Americans, Republicans and Democrats were pretty positive about Russia during the 2000's.

 

It doesn't make any sense to pull up quotes from 2012, and act like it's hypocrisy.  Things change.  Russia has done things since those comments were made, and ignoring the past 6 years and acting like it makes Democrats hypocrites or something is ignorant.  Russia-US relations have been strained due to actions of Russia for the past 6 years.  

McDonaldsGuy said:
NightDragon83 said:



The only thing the Russians did in regards to the 2016 elections was they hacked members of the DNC and released a bunch of emails via Wikileaks that basically confirmed what everyone already knew - the DNC and their buddies in the media and government were in the tank for Hillary all along, and it blew up in their faces when Trump won.

It should be noted there's no proof Russia even did it. The FBI never investigated the servers. It was "investigated" a third party that is pro-Democrat and anti-Russia.

I think Russia hacking the DNC is an even bigger lie than WMDs.

The CIA, and many other intelligence agencies confirmed that Russia had connections to the people that were responsible.  



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the-pi-guy said:

Sure, let's just ignore the past 6 years then.  

Americans as a whole, have been incredibly critical of Russia ever since they annexed Crimea in 2014.  

Americans, Republicans and Democrats were pretty positive about Russia during the 2000's.

 

It doesn't make any sense to pull up quotes from 2012, and act like it's hypocrisy.  Things change.  Russia has done things since those comments were made, and ignoring the past 6 years and acting like it makes Democrats hypocrites or something is ignorant.  Russia-US relations have been strained due to actions of Russia for the past 6 years.  

McDonaldsGuy said:

It should be noted there's no proof Russia even did it. The FBI never investigated the servers. It was "investigated" a third party that is pro-Democrat and anti-Russia.

I think Russia hacking the DNC is an even bigger lie than WMDs.

The CIA, and many other intelligence agencies confirmed that Russia had connections to the people that were responsible.  

 

Things brings up more questions:

1. Why didn't Obama see this coming? Remember, Obama not only disagreed with Romney, but outright MOCKED and HUMILIATED him in a debate being watched by 50 million+ people. So what did the former Governor of Massachusetts see in Russia that the Commander-in-Chief, the Vice President, and TWO Secretary of States could not see?

2. Why did Obama call them only a "regional power acting out of weakness" in 2014? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-dismisses-russia-as-regional-power-acting-out-of-weakness/2014/03/25/1e5a678e-b439-11e3-b899-20667de76985_story.html

How do you go from "regional power acting out of weakness" to in just 2 years able to pull off the greatest transatlantic cyber attack the USA has ever seen?

3. Why did Robert Mueller say Iraq had WMDs? Why should I believe them now when they lied to me about Iraq WMDs?



McDonaldsGuy said:

Things brings up more questions:

1. Why didn't Obama see this coming? Remember, Obama not only disagreed with Romney, but outright MOCKED and HUMILIATED him in a debate being watched by 50 million+ people. So what did the former Governor of Massachusetts see in Russia that the Commander-in-Chief, the Vice President, and TWO Secretary of States could not see?

2. Why did Obama call them only a "regional power acting out of weakness" in 2014? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-dismisses-russia-as-regional-power-acting-out-of-weakness/2014/03/25/1e5a678e-b439-11e3-b899-20667de76985_story.html

How do you go from "regional power acting out of weakness" to in just 2 years able to pull off the greatest transatlantic cyber attack the USA has ever seen?

3. Why did Robert Mueller say Iraq had WMDs? Why should I believe them now when they lied to me about Iraq WMDs?

 

1/2.)  

The reason Obama didn't see it is because he was optimistic about Russia.   During the first few years of Obama's tenure, relations with Russia were greatly improving.  Up until 2012, when Putin was re-elected, Snowden in 2013.   Obama was optimistic about Iran.  

It isn't because Romney had some inside track of knowledge.  Unlike Obama, he was not optimistic.  Republicans don't tend to be optimistic about foreign policy.  They prefer to err on the side of caution.  This is why the Iran deal is so controversial.  Even though currently it seems that Obama was right to trust Iran, Republicans tend to be more cautious.  

 

3.) Technically RM doesn't say Iraq had WMD's.  He says Powell provided evidence that Iraq had WMD's.  



the-pi-guy said:
 

1/2.)  

The reason Obama didn't see it is because he was optimistic about Russia.   During the first few years of Obama's tenure, relations with Russia were greatly improving.  Up until 2012, when Putin was re-elected, Snowden in 2013.   Obama was optimistic about Iran.  

It isn't because Romney had some inside track of knowledge.  Unlike Obama, he was not optimistic.  Republicans don't tend to be optimistic about foreign policy.  They prefer to err on the side of caution.  This is why the Iran deal is so controversial.  Even though currently it seems that Obama was right to trust Iran, Republicans tend to be more cautious.  

 

3.) Technically RM doesn't say Iraq had WMD's.  He says Powell provided evidence that Iraq had WMD's.  

1. So he's an idiot? And so are Clinton, Kerry, and Biden and the Democratic party? They all got fooled by Russia?

He was our Commander-in-Chief! He should've did less Buzzfeed YouTube videos and more commandering then right?

But there's one problem with that: most of what people criticize Russia for - such as "killing political opponents" - happened pre-2012.

Clinton even wrote an entire OpEd about how trade with Russia will help and why we shouldn't pass the Magnistky Act: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303836404577475061208876588

She even admits there is a lot of political opposition to it because of human rights issues in Russia - but she brushes them off.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/05/15/the-magnitsky-flip-flop/

"The administration, starting with Hillary Clinton and then John Kerry, did everything they could do to stop the Magnitsky Act.”

In addition:

a) They announced a "reset" literally months after Russia invaded Georgia - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/07/AR2009020700756.html

b) Obama removed the missile defense systems in Poland and the Czech Republic in 2009

c) Obama ignored Russia's violations of the 1987 Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty - https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/30/world/europe/us-says-russia-tested-missile-despite-treaty.html?_r=0

Remember, Obama would not only disagree with others on Russia, but would publicly humilate and ridicule those who disagreed with him on Russia.

Obama went "far beyond" being optimistic when he outright insulted Romney on the debate stage:

3.) Technically RM doesn't say Iraq had WMD's.  He says Powell provided evidence that Iraq had WMD's.  "

Funny because I don't remembe Mueller or the FBI investigated the DNC's servers either. They're relying on a third party.

Crowdstrike cleaned the DNC servers, andthen  doesn't allow the FBI to access them. The FBI made "multiple requests at different levels" but the DNC refused. http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/313555-comey-fbi-did-request-access-to-hacked-dnc-servers

We've seen this movie back during the Iraq war and I want to avoid it again. I am tired of warmongers always wanting to fight wars based on lies.

You tried to tell us Iraq had WMDs. Now you're trying to tell me Russia hacked the election.



McDonaldsGuy said:

You tried to tell us Iraq had WMDs. Now you're trying to tell me Russia hacked the election.

This is the only thing I have time to respond to, right now.

Who is this "you", you're pointing to?

It was Bush's administration, Republicans, that said Iraq had WMDs.  They were the ones who lied.



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McDonaldsGuy said:

Things brings up more questions:

1. Why didn't Obama see this coming? Remember, Obama not only disagreed with Romney, but outright MOCKED and HUMILIATED him in a debate being watched by 50 million+ people. So what did the former Governor of Massachusetts see in Russia that the Commander-in-Chief, the Vice President, and TWO Secretary of States could not see?

2. Why did Obama call them only a "regional power acting out of weakness" in 2014? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-dismisses-russia-as-regional-power-acting-out-of-weakness/2014/03/25/1e5a678e-b439-11e3-b899-20667de76985_story.html

How do you go from "regional power acting out of weakness" to in just 2 years able to pull off the greatest transatlantic cyber attack the USA has ever seen?

3. Why did Robert Mueller say Iraq had WMDs? Why should I believe them now when they lied to me about Iraq WMDs?

1. Because Russia made their advances into Chrimea in 2014, not in 2012? Romney obviously made the correct judgement in 2012.

2. Because the annexation had only begun? Obama was naive when it came to Russia, and I think even he would agree to that.

3. Well, that is not what he says in the clip but if we assume that he had said it, why is it relevant to the Russia investigation? By your reasoning we sholuldn´t believe ANYTHING trump says based on his avalanche of lies during his presidency.



the entire Russia farce was conjured by the Obama administration as excuse to illegally spy on a political opponent. When Trump won they kept it going because they had to. Their only way out was to get rid of Trump before they were exposed for their treason.

What we are seeing now is their failure to get rid of Trump before the evidence of their crimes is starting to emerge. There has been an insane amount of high level DOJ and FBI employees getting "resigned" in the past few weeks.

Swamp draining I guess.



End of 2009 Predictions (Set, January 1st 2009)

Wii- 72 million   3rd Year Peak, better slate of releases

360- 37 million   Should trend down slightly after 3rd year peak

PS3- 29 million  Sales should pick up next year, 3rd year peak and price cut

bigjon said:
the entire Russia farce was conjured by the Obama administration as excuse to illegally spy on a political opponent. When Trump won they kept it going because they had to. Their only way out was to get rid of Trump before they were exposed for their treason.

What we are seeing now is their failure to get rid of Trump before the evidence of their crimes is starting to emerge. There has been an insane amount of high level DOJ and FBI employees getting "resigned" in the past few weeks.

Swamp draining I guess.

And your explanation for Trump firing Comey because, according to Trump himself, of the Russia investigation and being extremely critical of Mueller is because.... he is innocent? =)



the-pi-guy said:
McDonaldsGuy said:

You tried to tell us Iraq had WMDs. Now you're trying to tell me Russia hacked the election.

This is the only thing I have time to respond to, right now.

Who is this "you", you're pointing to?

It was Bush's administration, Republicans, that said Iraq had WMDs.  They were the ones who lied.

Robert Mueller and the same people saying Iraq had WMDs are now saying Russia "hacked" the election. You're not giving me a good explanation on why I should believe you about Russia when the FBI didn't even investigate the servers themselves.

The Iraq War was bipartisan BTW. Bill Clinton was the one laying the foundation for the Iraq War.

"In the next century, the community of nations may see more and more the very kind of threat Iraq poses now a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction ready to use them or provide them to terrorists, drug traffickers or organized criminals who travel the world among us unnoticed."

- Bill Clinton, on Saddam Hussein's WMD threat in 1998

"Now, let's imagine the future. What if he fails to comply and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route, which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made?"

- The Iraq Liberation Act signed by Bill Clinton also in 1998

“No one has done what Saddam Hussein has done, or is thinking of doing. He is producing weapons of mass destruction, and he is qualitatively and quantitatively different from other dictators.”

- Bill's Secretary of State Albright in 1998

Let me guess, George W. Bush was really Bill Clinton in disguise?

I bet you didn't even know the Clinton Administration was making the same exact claims Bush would 5 years later. Bill Clinton also bombed Baghdad many, many times. One because he thought Saddam tried to assassinate George Bush - but of course, the intelligence there was questionable.

BTW, if Clinton was so fooled by Russia why the hell would we vote for her? You're clearly saying the former SECRETARY OF STATE (she wasn't a Senator then) was fooled by Clinton. Same with Obama, Kerry, Biden, and the entire Democratic party. All fooled by Russia. So your solution is to elect those idiots? You don't award people for being wrong.

Last edited by McDonaldsGuy - on 12 February 2018

Trump cultists, again, trying to say Russia didn’t do anything and is the best country in the world