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Forums - Politics Discussion - What is "socialism"? - An attempt to clear up myths/misconceptions

o_O.Q said:
Jaicee said:

I've long considered myself to be a socialist, and personally, when I use that term, I refer to a general system of social ownership and management, to put it simply. More specifically, I would count myself a communalist, which is a type of socialism that is based on local community ownership and management (collective economic planning, etc.) and participatory democracy.

The most common argument that I hear against socialist systems is that they are inefficient. In my observation, I would say that appears to be true. And I don't care. In contrast to the Marxist point of view, I am not concerned about whether or not such a system generates a lot of economic growth. In fact, I tend to favor a no-growth economy because the callous and reckless efficiency of the capitalist system is precisely its problem.

The fact of the matter is that the main reason why both poverty and the global average temperature are on the rise in the world today is precisely because there is too much production going on as things are; so much that it is not even ecologically sustainable! So much that weaponry has become affordable to almost every bad actor on the planet, which has resulted in a fairly steady increase in the amount of warfare going on this century. We could stand to have a more egalitarian distribution of wealth at the expense of a level of productive efficiency that is doing more harm than good anyway in my opinion.

" We could stand to have a more egalitarian distribution of wealth at the expense of a level of productive efficiency that is doing more harm than good anyway in my opinion."

 

that's not how it works... if you tax the rich to the point where they don't receive a certain level of profit for their efforts... why would they bother?, i know i wouldn't

what socialists don't get is if you take out the rich productive people then everyone suffers because the advancements they produce that improve life for everyone are stifled as a result

What you still don't understand is that socialism is not based on taxation of the rich. Rather, as it is based on an economic system without classes wealth wouldn't even need to be distributed in the first place.



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VGPolyglot said:
o_O.Q said:

" We could stand to have a more egalitarian distribution of wealth at the expense of a level of productive efficiency that is doing more harm than good anyway in my opinion."

 

that's not how it works... if you tax the rich to the point where they don't receive a certain level of profit for their efforts... why would they bother?, i know i wouldn't

what socialists don't get is if you take out the rich productive people then everyone suffers because the advancements they produce that improve life for everyone are stifled as a result

What you still don't understand is that socialism is not based on taxation of the rich. Rather, as it is based on an economic system without classes wealth wouldn't even need to be distributed in the first place.

"Rather, as it is based on an economic system without classes"

which is a stupid idea and i'll demonstrate why again for like the tenth time

how are you going to prevent different classes from developing if no one has more power over the others and you acknowledge that people are different?

 

i suppose you'd have to disregard that last part to address this question as socialists generally do



o_O.Q said:
VGPolyglot said:

What you still don't understand is that socialism is not based on taxation of the rich. Rather, as it is based on an economic system without classes wealth wouldn't even need to be distributed in the first place.

"Rather, as it is based on an economic system without classes"

which is a stupid idea and i'll demonstrate why again for like the tenth time

how are you going to prevent different classes from developing if no one has more power over the others and you acknowledge that people are different?

 

i suppose you'd have to disregard that last part to address this question as socialists generally do

Wait, if no one has more power over the others how would classes develop? And yes people are different, but do you know what classes are? In today's current society there are people belonging in the same class that are drastically different.



Leadified said:
o_O.Q said:

"The most common argument that I hear against socialist systems is that they are inefficient."

no the most common arguments are that they result in more suffering for communities as a whole because standards of living fall, individuals lose opportunities to advance themselves and in extreme cases like in nazi germany it results in genocide 

Ah yes, Nazi Germany. Well known for it's capitalist socialist policies like widespread privatization of sectors like mining, banking, railways, public utilities, transportation, banning collective bargaining and banning all independent trade unions. Also some very friendly socialist political measures like imprisoning, executing socialists, communists and aligning with the Germany right. Anyways, Ronald Reagan is my favourite socialist.

 

"Ah yes, Nazi Germany. Well known for it's capitalist socialist policies"

 

yes but first off the term "NAZI" means NATIONAL SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY

now onto his socialist policies:

 

Employment for All

"As Fuhrer, Hitler’s first priority was jobs, or the lack of them. German unemployment had peaked at 6 million due to the Depression devastating the economy. With innovative public works schemes such as the building of autobahns, Hitler put every German back to work. He also advocated schemes such as KdF – Strength Through Joy – which gave workers increased benefits for increased levels of production."

 

mandatory public education

"When the mothers had to go out into the work force, the government immediately established child care centers. You could take your children ages 4 weeks to school age and leave them there around-the-clock, 7 days a week, under the total care of the government. The state raised a whole generation of children."

 

Nationalized Healthcare

"After Hitler’s health care was socialized, free for everyone. Doctors were salaried by the government. The problem was, since it was free, the people were going to the doctors for everything. "

 

Gun Control 

Abortion

and of course we couldn't leave out blaming the ills of society on the wealthiest members of society (the jews)

 

with regards to your points firsts off

 

"banning all independent trade unions"

 

you do understand that this is a socialist action right? capitalism encourages the setting up of independent institutions, socialism and communism due to their reliance on the government to put policies in place for everyone would be where we would expect independent institutions to be banned

 

"s like widespread privatization of sectors like mining, banking, railways, public utilities, transportation"

 

um since the nazi regime was totalitarian this is interesting, can you identify the entities within germany at the time that owned these sectors?

 

" Also some very friendly socialist political measures like imprisoning, executing socialists, communists"

 

yeah socialists and communists aren't very loyal to their own... that's no surprise to me might have a lot to do with their ideology being completely logically incoherent

 

"and aligning with the Germany right."

 your link didn't work but i hope you aren't down the ridiculous line of calling hitler a christian?

hitler was an occultist who worshiped the sun and man(the aryan race)

the swastika is itself a symbol which represents the sun



VGPolyglot said:
o_O.Q said:

"Rather, as it is based on an economic system without classes"

which is a stupid idea and i'll demonstrate why again for like the tenth time

how are you going to prevent different classes from developing if no one has more power over the others and you acknowledge that people are different?

 

i suppose you'd have to disregard that last part to address this question as socialists generally do

Wait, if no one has more power over the others how would classes develop? And yes people are different, but do you know what classes are? In today's current society there are people belonging in the same class that are drastically different.

"Wait, if no one has more power over the others how would classes develop? "

are men for example stronger than women? 

continuing on from that are some men also stronger then other men?

what about bravery? what about cunning? what about psychopathy?

 

i mean you've interacted with other people right?

 

" but do you know what classes are?"

well i'm assuming that since we appear to be having a conversation about classes, that we both acknowledge what classes are but to clarify what are you calling a class?


"In today's current society there are people belonging in the same class that are drastically different."

in what ways?



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o_O.Q said:
Leadified said:

Ah yes, Nazi Germany. Well known for it's capitalist socialist policies like widespread privatization of sectors like mining, banking, railways, public utilities, transportation, banning collective bargaining and banning all independent trade unions. Also some very friendly socialist political measures like imprisoning, executing socialists, communists and aligning with the Germany right. Anyways, Ronald Reagan is my favourite socialist.

 

"Ah yes, Nazi Germany. Well known for it's capitalist socialist policies"

yes but first off the term "NAZI" means NATIONAL SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY

now onto his socialist policies:

 

Employment for All

"As Fuhrer, Hitler’s first priority was jobs, or the lack of them. German unemployment had peaked at 6 million due to the Depression devastating the economy. With innovative public works schemes such as the building of autobahns, Hitler put every German back to work. He also advocated schemes such as KdF – Strength Through Joy – which gave workers increased benefits for increased levels of production."

 

mandatory public education

"When the mothers had to go out into the work force, the government immediately established child care centers. You could take your children ages 4 weeks to school age and leave them there around-the-clock, 7 days a week, under the total care of the government. The state raised a whole generation of children."

 

Nationalized Healthcare

"After Hitler’s health care was socialized, free for everyone. Doctors were salaried by the government. The problem was, since it was free, the people were going to the doctors for everything. "

 

Gun Control 

Abortion

and of course we couldn't leave out blaming the ills of society on the wealthiest members of society (the jews)

 

with regards to your points firsts off

 

"banning all independent trade unions"

 

you do understand that this is a socialist action right? capitalism encourages the setting up of independent institutions, socialism and communism due to their reliance on the government to put policies in place for everyone would be where we would expect independent institutions to be banned

 

"s like widespread privatization of sectors like mining, banking, railways, public utilities, transportation"

 

um since the nazi regime was totalitarian this is interesting, can you identify the entities within germany at the time that owned these sectors?

 

" Also some very friendly socialist political measures like imprisoning, executing socialists, communists"

 

yeah socialists and communists aren't very loyal to their own... that's no surprise to me might have a lot to do with their ideology being completely logically incoherent

 

"and aligning with the Germany right."

 your link didn't work but i hope you aren't down the ridiculous line of calling hitler a christian?

hitler was an occultist who worshiped the sun and man(the aryan race)

the swastika is itself a symbol which represents the sun

Yes and HOT DOGS are also made out of real dogs! Maybe you don't live in a first world country but surprise, we do all of the things you listed here. Y-yeah socialists support trade unions which is why they also want to ban them (?).

Ah nice admission that you didn't read my link about privatization of the Nazi German economy, give it a read why don't you? Then you can answer your own question.

Or maybe it's because Nazis and Communists hate each other, not like they had a big war about it or anything, maybe that would make a little too much sense.

Link was a book about an alliance of the DNVP and the Nazis. The DNVP were a party of reactionary conservatives, obviously the natural ally of socialists. /s



o_O.Q said:
Leadified said:

Ah yes, Nazi Germany. Well known for it's capitalist socialist policies like widespread privatization of sectors like mining, banking, railways, public utilities, transportation, banning collective bargaining and banning all independent trade unions. Also some very friendly socialist political measures like imprisoning, executing socialists, communists and aligning with the Germany right. Anyways, Ronald Reagan is my favourite socialist.

 

"Ah yes, Nazi Germany. Well known for it's capitalist socialist policies"

 

yes but first off the term "NAZI" means NATIONAL SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY

now onto his socialist policies:

 

Employment for All

"As Fuhrer, Hitler’s first priority was jobs, or the lack of them. German unemployment had peaked at 6 million due to the Depression devastating the economy. With innovative public works schemes such as the building of autobahns, Hitler put every German back to work. He also advocated schemes such as KdF – Strength Through Joy – which gave workers increased benefits for increased levels of production."

 

mandatory public education

"When the mothers had to go out into the work force, the government immediately established child care centers. You could take your children ages 4 weeks to school age and leave them there around-the-clock, 7 days a week, under the total care of the government. The state raised a whole generation of children."

 

Nationalized Healthcare

"After Hitler’s health care was socialized, free for everyone. Doctors were salaried by the government. The problem was, since it was free, the people were going to the doctors for everything. "

 

Gun Control 

Abortion

and of course we couldn't leave out blaming the ills of society on the wealthiest members of society (the jews)

 

with regards to your points firsts off

 

"banning all independent trade unions"

 

you do understand that this is a socialist action right? capitalism encourages the setting up of independent institutions, socialism and communism due to their reliance on the government to put policies in place for everyone would be where we would expect independent institutions to be banned

 

"s like widespread privatization of sectors like mining, banking, railways, public utilities, transportation"

 

um since the nazi regime was totalitarian this is interesting, can you identify the entities within germany at the time that owned these sectors?

 

" Also some very friendly socialist political measures like imprisoning, executing socialists, communists"

 

yeah socialists and communists aren't very loyal to their own... that's no surprise to me might have a lot to do with their ideology being completely logically incoherent

 

"and aligning with the Germany right."

 your link didn't work but i hope you aren't down the ridiculous line of calling hitler a christian?

hitler was an occultist who worshiped the sun and man(the aryan race)

the swastika is itself a symbol which represents the sun

Their name is not important, it's their policies that we have to put into consideration. One, they privatized many key industries:

"It is a fact that the government of the Nazi Party sold off public ownership in several Stateowned firms in the mid-1930s. These firms belonged to a wide range of sectors: steel, mining, banking, local public utilities, shipyards, ship-lines, railways, etc. In addition, the delivery of some public services that were produced by government prior to the 1930s, especially social and labor-related services, was transferred to the private sector, mainly to organizations within the party."

Also, in regards to the unemployment rate, Jews lost their citizenship and women stopped being counted in the statistics, which obviously shifted the numbers.

Not sure why his link didn't work as you claim, since I was able to click and read it. Essentially Hugenberg, a member of the conservative party in Germany, allied with Hitler.

It's also great that you didn't provide sources at all for your claims. Then again, you kind of destroy your own argument when you say that their ideology was "completely logically incoherent".



o_O.Q said:
VGPolyglot said:

Wait, if no one has more power over the others how would classes develop? And yes people are different, but do you know what classes are? In today's current society there are people belonging in the same class that are drastically different.

"Wait, if no one has more power over the others how would classes develop? "

are men for example stronger than women? 

continuing on from that are some men also stronger then other men?

what about bravery? what about cunning? what about psychopathy?

 

i mean you've interacted with other people right?

 

" but do you know what classes are?"

well i'm assuming that since we appear to be having a conversation about classes, that we both acknowledge what classes are but to clarify what are you calling a class?


"In today's current society there are people belonging in the same class that are drastically different."

in what ways?

So, the average age of a billionaire is 64 years old, so strength obviously is not the main factor when power comes into play since I'm pretty sure a lot of fit young adults could kick their ass. 

In regards to class, I mean their relation in regards to labour and production.

In terms of differences, lower class people can be either male or female, any age and any race.



Leadified said:
o_O.Q said:

 

"Ah yes, Nazi Germany. Well known for it's capitalist socialist policies"

yes but first off the term "NAZI" means NATIONAL SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY

now onto his socialist policies:

 

Employment for All

"As Fuhrer, Hitler’s first priority was jobs, or the lack of them. German unemployment had peaked at 6 million due to the Depression devastating the economy. With innovative public works schemes such as the building of autobahns, Hitler put every German back to work. He also advocated schemes such as KdF – Strength Through Joy – which gave workers increased benefits for increased levels of production."

 

mandatory public education

"When the mothers had to go out into the work force, the government immediately established child care centers. You could take your children ages 4 weeks to school age and leave them there around-the-clock, 7 days a week, under the total care of the government. The state raised a whole generation of children."

 

Nationalized Healthcare

"After Hitler’s health care was socialized, free for everyone. Doctors were salaried by the government. The problem was, since it was free, the people were going to the doctors for everything. "

 

Gun Control 

Abortion

and of course we couldn't leave out blaming the ills of society on the wealthiest members of society (the jews)

 

with regards to your points firsts off

 

"banning all independent trade unions"

 

you do understand that this is a socialist action right? capitalism encourages the setting up of independent institutions, socialism and communism due to their reliance on the government to put policies in place for everyone would be where we would expect independent institutions to be banned

 

"s like widespread privatization of sectors like mining, banking, railways, public utilities, transportation"

 

um since the nazi regime was totalitarian this is interesting, can you identify the entities within germany at the time that owned these sectors?

 

" Also some very friendly socialist political measures like imprisoning, executing socialists, communists"

 

yeah socialists and communists aren't very loyal to their own... that's no surprise to me might have a lot to do with their ideology being completely logically incoherent

 

"and aligning with the Germany right."

 your link didn't work but i hope you aren't down the ridiculous line of calling hitler a christian?

hitler was an occultist who worshiped the sun and man(the aryan race)

the swastika is itself a symbol which represents the sun

Yes and HOT DOGS are also made out of real dogs! Maybe you don't live in a first world country but surprise, we do all of the things you listed here. Y-yeah socialists support trade unions which is why they also want to ban them (?).

Ah nice admission that you didn't read my link about privatization of the Nazi German economy, give it a read why don't you? Then you can answer your own question.

Or maybe it's because Nazis and Communists hate each other, not like they had a big war about it or anything, maybe that would make a little too much sense.

Link was a book about an alliance of the DNVP and the Nazis. The DNVP were a party of reactionary conservatives, obviously the natural ally of socialists. /s

"we do all of the things you listed here."

yes... because america is not a completely capitalist society.. despite what socialist claim... america has a combination socialist and capitalist policies which i would think is actually desirable... giving those who want to excel the space to do so while still maintaining to some degree a safety net for those who aren't well off

 

"Y-yeah socialists support trade unions which is why they also want to ban them (?)."

and how did they ban them? through government intervention right?

 

"Ah nice admission that you didn't read my link about privatization of the Nazi German economy, give it a read why don't you?"

the point i was trying to make is that these sectors were handed over to supporters of the nazi party through the government

and that's the problem with giving all of your rights away because some socialist or communist guarantees that they'll set things right as was the case in germany

 

"Or maybe it's because Nazis and Communists hate each other"

they did.... and your point is what? that this means that the nazis weren't socialist? despite all of the socialist policies i listed and you unintentionally listed?

to reiterate government control over services is socialist in nature

"a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole."

this means that when the government seized the steel works for example, that was a socialist action living up to their name


despite what you may claim the government has always been how the community chooses to regulate things.. that's why there's a vote


capitalism on the other hand is about leaving people to run their business with minimal or no government intervention

 

"Link was a book about an alliance of the DNVP and the Nazis. The DNVP were a party of reactionary conservatives, obviously the natural ally of socialists."

this really means nothing when you actually consider what his actions were and that's all that's really important



VGPolyglot said:
o_O.Q said:

"Wait, if no one has more power over the others how would classes develop? "

are men for example stronger than women? 

continuing on from that are some men also stronger then other men?

what about bravery? what about cunning? what about psychopathy?

 

i mean you've interacted with other people right?

 

" but do you know what classes are?"

well i'm assuming that since we appear to be having a conversation about classes, that we both acknowledge what classes are but to clarify what are you calling a class?


"In today's current society there are people belonging in the same class that are drastically different."

in what ways?

So, the average age of a billionaire is 64 years old, so strength obviously is not the main factor when power comes into play since I'm pretty sure a lot of fit young adults could kick their ass. 

In regards to class, I mean their relation in regards to labour and production.

In terms of differences, lower class people can be either male or female, any age and any race.

"So, the average age of a billionaire is 64 years old"

do you suppose they get their wealth instantaneously at that age or is it more sensible to consider that perhaps they build their wealth through their lifetime?

 

"In regards to class, I mean their relation in regards to labour and production."

so people are all equal when it comes to labour and production?

 

"In terms of differences, lower class people can be either male or female, any age and any race."

yes... so what?