By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics - Half the Venezuelan economy has disappeared

VGPolyglot said:
DarthVolod said:

Did you read the article you linked? Here is a key detail: 

  1. As much as 60 percent of hacked small and medium-sized businesses go out of business after six months.
So are we saying that 67% of Venezuelan companies were hacked now? Well I guess in a matter of speaking there were "hacked" to pieces by Chavez when he nationalized thousands of businesses and large segments of the economy (which is not what even his supporters expected).
What you are saying goes beyond misleading ... I think you are doing some incredible mental gymnastics here to justify the horrors that have been inflicted by an unambiguously socialist dictator. 
Also I checked the US census data as an example. Total number of firms in the US from 1991 to 2008 ... as you can see there was not a drop of 67%....   https://www.census.gov/epcd/susb/1998/us/US--.HTM  

 

Total firms (US)

2008 5,930,132
1991 5,051,025

Yes, I guess I should have been a bit more specific. However, it does say that almost 50% of small businesses encounter it, and 50% of 60% is 30%, no small number. And if Chavez was "unambiguously" socialist, why would we even have so much debate? Also, you show numbers of the differences between corporations between those years (and that was 2008, 10 years ago which is a long time), but does it say how many of those companies from 1991 were still around in 2008?

I don't think there is much debate here to be honest... Chavez was a socialist, he boldly advocated for his socialist policies. His effectiveness in actually getting them implemented was poor, but it is not like he could just flip a switch and change the country completely; takes time. 

I used the data I gave because it was the most recent I could find; still useful for showing a trend. I could not find specifically which companies survived from 1991 to 2008 either, i'm not sure if that data exists. My ultimate point being that Chavez essentially declared war on private business in the name of his socialist agenda ... even if he had not implemented a single policy that fact alone has a profound impact on the economy. Imagine if Trump had a press conference tomorrow and said that America is going to war with private industry ... what do you think that would do to market confidence / stock markets?



Around the Network

This is what happens when you look to government to take care of you.

History has proven time and time again that government is a net negative to human progress. I feel for the Venezuelan people. But, they put themselves in this spot. They should rise up and kick those commie scumbags to the curb. I think they will do so pretty soon.



Pemalite said:
palou said:

(which is necessary, as Venezuela is not exactly self-sufficient. No country really is, these days, although the us comes closest.)

Citation needed.
Australia produces more food than it consumes.

We also have a ton of resources to be energy and resource self-sufficient (Which we also export to the USA), tons of Uranium and Coal, Iron Ore coming out of our Posteriors... Oil and Gas? Sure do.
Plus... We have the advantage of a smaller population to reduce the strain on all of the resources on this continent.

However... Despite that we will still import food and resources if it's cheaper, that doesn't mean we are reliant on those countries... It just makes us financially prudent.

Economically self-sufficient, I mine. Sure, you could survive alone. Would you be able to sustain an economy anywhere close to what you currently hold? No, certainly not. The majority of the value of consumer products purchased in Australia (phones, cars, clothes, etc...) are foreign (as is the case everywhere), and Australia certainly does *not* have the capacity to sustain that within its borders, either.

Looking through the data, yeah... US isn't either. Closer, though. Mostly just by being bigger, lol.



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

DarthVolod said:
Leadified said:

Between 1999 and 2011 the share of economy activity from the private sector rose from 65% to 71%. Also provided is an article from Fox News, which also talks about the private sector in the country and offers some more stats. Indeed the public sector was 30% of the GDP in Venezuela compared to 25% in Sweden.

Why Venezuela is in Crisis (The Nation)
What Socialism?... (Fox News)

I suggest you also read the articles in my reply to sc94597 to see how half baked Chavez's "socialism" was. Chavez was a socialist that ran a bloated social democracy that was bound to pop when a shock like 2014's oil crisis hit. He was still working within a capitalist framework and it doesn't matter what your personal ideology is because if you run a country just as poorly as Chavez then you're still going to crash the economy.

In fact, the last economic crisis in Venezuela happened in the mid 1990s while a neoliberal government was in power and it was caused by low oil prices and financial liberalization. Before that, Venezuela had another economic crisis in the 1980s, once again caused by an oil shock and neoliberal policies. Almost as if there's a common theme to all these crisis...

I think you realise this as well which is why you avoided answering my two questions in favour of making a point about the declining private sector in the country.

Oversimplification there. Yes, the country has had major economic problems and a economic cycle of sorts since the 1980's, but virtually everything has been tried to attempt to tinker with and "fix" the economy. That is the essence of the problem, chronic interference in the economy so far as I see it. 

Good article I found on the subject: https://revista.drclas.harvard.edu/book/venezuela-1980s-1990s-and-beyond 

The essence of the problem is oil and it will always be a problem until Venezuela develops it's economy which will not happen without government intervention.

VAMatt said:
This is what happens when you look to government to take care of you.

History has proven time and time again that government is a net negative to human progress. I feel for the Venezuelan people. But, they put themselves in this spot. They should rise up and kick those commie scumbags to the curb. I think they will do so pretty soon.

And become another US puppet state until the false guise of "free market capitalism"? No thanks.



Leadified said:

And become another US puppet state until the false guise of "free market capitalism"? No thanks.

Who said anything about that?  The Venezuelans need to get government out of the way.  They don't need fake free market capitalism like the USA.  They need actual free markets.  



Around the Network

And here's the part where Maurdo/Chavez knew things were going to go. Years ago, they imported hundreds of thousands of guns from the Russians for their militias. The earliest info I have is from 2009/2010, but Chavez was already planning to protect the regime with the Bolivarian militias that far back.

Sadly, evil dictators such as those within Venezuela's socialist party will do some terrible things to stay in power.

Venezuela will serve as a sad, stark contrast as to how not to run your country for decades... If anyone heeds the warning.

 

Also, its funny to come back this year and see so many people dogging socialism, instead of supporting it like they did in the early days of VGC. Oh my, how the times have changed!



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

VAMatt said:
Leadified said:

And become another US puppet state until the false guise of "free market capitalism"? No thanks.

Who said anything about that?  The Venezuelans need to get government out of the way.  They don't need fake free market capitalism like the USA.  They need actual free markets.  

And what is an actual free market?



VAMatt said:
Leadified said:

And become another US puppet state until the false guise of "free market capitalism"? No thanks.

Who said anything about that?  The Venezuelans need to get government out of the way.  They don't need fake free market capitalism like the USA.  They need actual free markets.  

The problem is that the US is actively trying to overthrow the government of Venezuela so they can swoop in an install their own US friendly regime. The state department today has announced that they want to "force democratic change", a massive oxymoron, and has admitted helping to collapse Venezuela's economy. "Getting the government out of the way" is exactly what the US and European countries want right now in order to reap the spoil's of Venezuela's natural resources, they do not care at all for the Venezuelan people.



Leadified said:
VAMatt said:

Who said anything about that?  The Venezuelans need to get government out of the way.  They don't need fake free market capitalism like the USA.  They need actual free markets.  

The problem is that the US is actively trying to overthrow the government of Venezuela so they can swoop in an install their own US friendly regime. The state department today has announced that they want to "force democratic change", a massive oxymoron, and has admitted helping to collapse Venezuela's economy. "Getting the government out of the way" is exactly what the US and European countries want right now in order to reap the spoil's of Venezuela's natural resources, they do not care at all for the Venezuelan people.

I largely agree with you.  However, even if you are 100% correct, there is no realistic argument to be made that Venezuelans will be worse off under a US puppet regime.  Venezuela is a resource rich country.  It has been run completely into the ground by the socialist regime.  That regime must be cast off.  Then maybe the people will have the wherewithal to cast of the puppets that come next.   



VGPolyglot said:
VAMatt said:

Who said anything about that?  The Venezuelans need to get government out of the way.  They don't need fake free market capitalism like the USA.  They need actual free markets.  

And what is an actual free market?

All transactions are completely voluntary, and in no way influenced by government.  Basically, zero government.