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Forums - Politics - What is it going to take to restart the US Government after the shutdown, and what does it all mean?

DarthVolod on 09 February 2018
Final-Fan said:
DarthVolod said:

Correct, it was not within Obama's power to do so. Trump from my understanding is more open to a path to citizenship in relationship to DACA, he even indicated as much in tweets if I recall correctly. The trade off for this would be funding border security and taking steps to control immigration. 

Giving the DACA group a permanent status would allow them to sponsor other family members like parents and siblings. This is different from the status quo ... the status quo is that if you entered the country illegally (which the parents of many of the DREAMers fall in this category) you must leave and apply from abroad). They would now have the DREAMers to sponsor them ... this would lead to a quantitative difference although not immediately. Chain migration is part of the status quo yes ... but that does not apply here since we are talking about a group of people that can not currently utilize it. 

My understanding is that attempts to curb chain migration in general are an attempt to redirect those numbers to a different more stringent qualification system and path to citizenship. 

"4 million more based on chain migration"
Your "by the numbers" claim that Trump was helping 6 million people vs. 2 million people was entirely based on the chain migration which—under the proposal—would just be the same as under Obama, and therefore Trump's proposal would not be "better than anything Obama ever offered" where chain migration is concerned. 

Where the DACA group is concerned, it could only be better, I contend, with the cooperation of Congress.  Congress wouldn't go along with it when Obama was in office, but it's hypothetically possible that they would if a Republican prez could take the credit.  So Trump's proposal would be "better than Obama" in the sense that Trump, unlike Obama, could get a Republican Congress to pass it.  Like I said before. 

And if you're saying it would be better in the sense that ex-DACA legalized immigrants could apply to the chain migration system ... yes, it would also be better in this very marginal sense.  This would be included in the previous point. 

Any disagreement? 

Currently, those protected by DACA can not bring in family members through chain migration. My understanding of the offer Trump made was to provide a path to citizenship for the 800,000 or so DACA who can then bring in potentially 3-4 people each or more via chain migration. This could not be done under Obama's DACA because it didn't offer citizenship; it just prevented them from being deported / allowed them to work. 

This is my understanding of the law unless I am mistaken. So it is a quantitative and qualitative difference from what Obama was doing. 



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Final-Fan on 13 February 2018
DarthVolod said:
Final-Fan said:

"4 million more based on chain migration"
Your "by the numbers" claim that Trump was helping 6 million people vs. 2 million people was entirely based on the chain migration which—under the proposal—would just be the same as under Obama, and therefore Trump's proposal would not be "better than anything Obama ever offered" where chain migration is concerned. 

Where the DACA group is concerned, it could only be better, I contend, with the cooperation of Congress.  Congress wouldn't go along with it when Obama was in office, but it's hypothetically possible that they would if a Republican prez could take the credit.  So Trump's proposal would be "better than Obama" in the sense that Trump, unlike Obama, could get a Republican Congress to pass it.  Like I said before. 

And if you're saying it would be better in the sense that ex-DACA legalized immigrants could apply to the chain migration system ... yes, it would also be better in this very marginal sense.  This would be included in the previous point. 

Any disagreement? 

Currently, those protected by DACA can not bring in family members through chain migration. My understanding of the offer Trump made was to provide a path to citizenship for the 800,000 or so DACA who can then bring in potentially 3-4 people each or more via chain migration. This could not be done under Obama's DACA because it didn't offer citizenship; it just prevented them from being deported / allowed them to work. 

This is my understanding of the law unless I am mistaken. So it is a quantitative and qualitative difference from what Obama was doing. 

Everything in your post is true, though I would point out that AFAIK there is a massive backlog on the chain migration applicants already so this would be of limited usefulness (see below); additionally, this benefit to DREAMers is relatively minor in comparison with the totality of our current immigration system (and its flaws).  If you meant "more than Obama ever did" in this very limited sense (i.e. Trump is more palatable to a Republican Congress to potentially allow legislation to cross his desk that allows DREAMers to fully legalize and therefore qualify to chain-migrate their parents*), then sure.  I had had the impression that you were claiming something more substantial, but maybe that was just a faulty assumption of mine. 

*There is a decades-long backlog of other types of relatives, but I believe parents don't have much of a backlog so (if I am remembering correctly) this would be the main benefit for DREAMers on this angle; and they are a relatively young population so there would be a relatively large number of parents that this would potentially let in. 



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Final-Fan on 13 February 2018
spurgeonryan said:
Did we shut down again or was it extended?

A few days ago Rand Paul caused a shutdown that lasted like five hours.  This was possible because Congress waited till the last second, so he was able to singlehandedly cause enough delay to throw the United States into overtime. 

Nothing more after that that I know of. 



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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Final-Fan on 13 February 2018

And to be honest, even though I disagree with the Senator, it's probably a good thing for him to throw a monkey wrench into this nonsense. Maybe next time they will remember what he did and not wait until 11:59:59 to strike a deal.



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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