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Teeqoz said:
Aeolus451 said:

I tried to give a summarized explanation of it for the sake of expediency but you're either not getting what I wrote so far or you're not being reasonable in what you think I mean with something. 

I go by the normal definition of socialism but I also account for how it might translate into policy. Like how you would change the us into a socialist country over time. I didn't go into the whole thing or touch the surface but what I did mention a bit on, you're jumping to the extreme conclusion on or assuming the worse. To be honest, that's getting on my nerves because it's difficult to have a reasonable discussion with someone when they're doing that shit and I don't think you're gonna stop.

 

Okay, but to clarify, you think Sander's proposed policies are with the ultimate goal of collectivizing US companies?

I really don't see how it's unreasonable to point out flawed explanations, but I can at least see that it isn't fruitful so I'll focus on the more important parts of this discussion:

When did it affect nordic countries' economies negatively when they applied some socialistic concepts to their economy? What makes you think Bernie Sanders wants to go any further than the nordic countries when it comes to applying socialistic concepts to the US?

It would lead to that especially if funding became a serious problem and people refused to pay higher taxes or to give up properties. It likely wouldn't happen though. It depend how many things he could made into law.

You're not discussing in good faith when you're drawing extreme conclusions either because you actually think that way or you're playing games. The reason why I mentioned taxation is because that would be main way a newly socialist government would seize wealth, goods, property and businesses from a country that was capitalist originally. All you had do was ask but no, you acted like I meant taxation is socialism. 

I don't know when exactly but it's fairly easy to find. Just look for when their economies weren't doing that good... They were over regulating and taxing too much to point that it was hurting their economy. They changed their mind quickly. Like I said, they were playing with it some. I can look this up more later on, if it seems worth the trouble. An actual socialist country would try to control their market completely and tax whatever they could heavily like foreign goods.

Bernie's comments in general. He mentioned before that he would be happy if everyone had to wait in line for food everyday with tickets....

Does everyone in Europe do that? 



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Aeolus451 said:
Teeqoz said:

Okay, but to clarify, you think Sander's proposed policies are with the ultimate goal of collectivizing US companies?

I really don't see how it's unreasonable to point out flawed explanations, but I can at least see that it isn't fruitful so I'll focus on the more important parts of this discussion:

When did it affect nordic countries' economies negatively when they applied some socialistic concepts to their economy? What makes you think Bernie Sanders wants to go any further than the nordic countries when it comes to applying socialistic concepts to the US?

It would lead to that especially if funding became a serious problem and people refused to pay higher taxes or to give up properties. It likely wouldn't happen though. It depend how many things he could made into law.

You're not discussing in good faith when you're drawing extreme conclusions either because you actually think that way or you're playing games. The reason why I mentioned taxation is because that would be main way a newly socialist government would seize wealth, goods, property and businesses from a country that was capitalist originally. All you had do was ask but no, you acted like I meant taxation is socialism. 

I don't know when exactly but it's fairly easy to find. Just look for when their economies weren't doing that good... They were over regulating and taxing too much to point that it was hurting their economy. They changed their mind quickly. Like I said, they were playing with it some. I can look this up more later on, if it seems worth the trouble. An actual socialist country would try to control their market completely and tax whatever they could heavily like foreign goods.

Bernie's comments in general. He mentioned before that he would be happy if everyone had to wait in line for food everyday with tickets....

Does everyone in Europe do that? 

I did not act like that, I even specified that I don't think you mean that all taxation is socialist. I was merely trying to get you to specify, because it's hard to say anything about a concept if it's fuzzy and not specific.

I know that my own country, Norway, has a rather high degree of government regulation, and the state is a large shareholder in a lot of the biggest companies, and some services are provided by the government, like healthcare. I know that the single best thing that ever happened for the Norwegian economy was that the government decided that the oil resources in the country should belong to the entire Norwegian people, so any companies that wish to extract oil from Norway pay a 78% (!) tax on income (not revenue) from oil-extracting revenues in Norway. Of course, when these companies spend billions of  dollars searching for new wells, they don't always find suitable ones, and in those cases, that cost can also be written off and they get a tax-credit. That's an example of how Norway has applied socialistic principles to its economy with great success. Universal free healthcare and universal free education are other examples. Those still remain in place.

(Note: I do not think placing a 78% tax on oil income in the US is feasable nor would it be beneficial, but it has worked extraordinarily well in Norway.)

And I don't claim Norway is a socialist country. I just claim that Bernie Sanders isn't any more socialist than Norway is.

I checked out what Bernie Sanders said, it's some quote from the 1980s:

"You know, it's funny. Sometimes American journalists talk about how bad a country is when people are lining up for food. That's a good thing. In other countries, people don't line up for food. The rich get the food and the poor starve to death"

From what I could find, he said it's a good thing poor people are waiting in line to get food opposed to staying at home starving. He never said he wanted everyone to wait in line for food handouts. Just that it's better that they get food at all. And guess what? Poor people in the US already wait in line to get food. Over 40 million people in the US are part of the food stamp system. The US spends 75 billion each year to provide meals to people that are unable to provide for themselves...

To quote yourself: "You're not discussing in good faith when you're drawing extreme conclusions either because you actually think that way or you're playing games."

Clearly I'm not the only one that needs to hear that, given the way you choose to interpret Bernie's words...



Aeolus451 said:
Leadified said:

I see, I disagree on those proposals being socialist since I follow the definition that socialism is the abolition of private property and worker control of the means of production. Therefore even if Sanders implements the most draconian policies imaginable, it can only be considered socialist till those two conditions are met. Which obviously is more than just redistribution of wealth and liberal social policies and programs. Naturally I don't consider social democracy like Sanders to be socialist but I don't really care to argue about semantics since I don't particularly care to challenge your definition of socialism in this case.

Again I don't think the Venezuela, Sanders comparison holds much water other than fear mongering.

The people means the government or state. The government would ultimately  have to seize the wealth (goods, property, money, businesses) of the rich and the middle class to fund vast social programs and to fund the government.

Canada and the United Kingdom are considered by the Heritage Foundation (a conservative think tank) to have more economic freedom (score better on property rights, open markets, UK on business freedom) than the United States, despite both countries having the government invested in social services like healthcare and education. Why would the US turn out any differently if such policies are implemented successfully?

No, the biggest problem with a President Sanders is he would inherent a country with poor labour relations and hostile legislation that any system he would attempt to implement would likely turn out half-assed and dysfunctional.



thismeintiel said:
Chris Hu said:

You are talking about fringe movements on the left.  Anyway the fringe on the right is far worse since it includes the KKK the alt right and various other hate groups.

The KKK was started by Democrats. Many Democrats were part of the KKK just 50-60 years ago, leading the resistance of the civil rights movement.  Many in thealt-right are pushing for socialist ideals, not something the right embraces. Same goes for Neo-Nazis. Nice try rewriting history, though. 

The Democrats aren't a synonym for leftism.



Aeolus451 said:

The kkk is a child of the left. Just had to point that out. 😹

No one really takes any of them seriously because they have virtually no power in anything in the us. They might as well not exist. They certainly don't warrant the existence of antifa in the us especially if the cost is them rioting and destroying things. They act more like the fascists than the neo nazis do to be honest.

I also despise both sides. They don't make the left or right look good.

Were the American Patriots fascists because they threw the tea into the harbor to protest the British?



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Aeolus451 said:

The kkk is a child of the left. Just had to point that out. 😹


KKK is very much right wing today.

Aeolus451 said:

No one really takes any of them seriously because they have virtually no power in anything in the us. They might as well not exist. They certainly don't warrant the existence of antifa in the us especially if the cost is them rioting and destroying things. They act more like the fascists than the neo nazis do to be honest.

I disagree. Trump being the prime example as he tends to be a neo-fascist sympathizer.
I am not as well versed on the American political landscape as I could be, but allot of the extreme stuff that happens over there does flow down here.

Australia has neo-nazi/fascist/white supremacist groups that have a massively huge following, thanks to their use of fear to propagate an anti-islam mentality, which simply was not a thing 10 years ago... And Trump got elected partly because of a similar platform.

Aeolus451 said:

I also despise both sides. They don't make the left or right look good.

Completely agree. Both should be completely shut down in the public and political sphere.
Extremists on either side are still extremists.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

Aeolus451 said:
Pemalite said:

Fascists have always existed in the USA in some capacity.

Ku Klux Klan has existed since the 1860's
American Nazi Party has existed since the 50's.
Aryan Nations has existed since the 70's.
National Alliance has existed since the 70's.
National Socialist Movement has been around since the 70's.
American Front has existed since the 80's.
Stormfront has existed since the 90's.

There has been a massive political shift to the right during the last 10 or so years the world over, which has allowed for fascists/neo-nazi's groups to gain prominence in the political landscape, they are still a minority of course, but they are growing.

The United Patriots Front being a prime example in Australia, who was backed by fascists like Pauline Hanson, Reclaim Australia and so on. - They disguise themselves as "Patriots". - Despite the fact they wish to alter the Constitution that this country was founded on, propagate racism, sexism and homophobia... Conversely, it wasn't until those groups started to gain prominence in the political sphere did their opponents also start to rise up.

Don't get me wrong, I despise both sides equally as much. ANTIFA resorting to violence is immature and stupid and ultimately solves nothing.
The Neo Nazi's they fight back against are fucking idiots.

The kkk is a child of the left. Just had to point that out. 😹

No one really takes any of them seriously because they have virtually no power in anything in the us. They might as well not exist. They certainly don't warrant the existence of antifa in the us especially if the cost is them rioting and destroying things. They act more like the fascists than the neo nazis do to be honest.

I also despise both sides. They don't make the left or right look good.

I mean, antifa are clearly morons, but I'd claim that they're close to being as irrelevant as the KKK, really... A couple very isolated riots, none with remotely significant losses, in the greater picture...



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Actually, you can all calm down a bit. It's highly likely that no one on here is either a fascist or participated in any riots, it's unfair to judge each other based on the irrational actions of fringe offenders that somehow share some ideological ground.



Bet with PeH: 

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palou said:
Actually, you can all calm down a bit. It's highly likely that no one on here is either a fascist or participated in any riots, it's unfair to judge each other based on the irrational actions of fringe offenders that somehow share some ideological ground.

This is a calm and civil discussion. I'm not aware of anyone claiming that another forum member is a fascist, participated in riots or are judging each other.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

Pemalite said:
palou said:
Actually, you can all calm down a bit. It's highly likely that no one on here is either a fascist or participated in any riots, it's unfair to judge each other based on the irrational actions of fringe offenders that somehow share some ideological ground.

This is a calm and civil discussion. I'm not aware of anyone claiming that another forum member is a fascist, participated in riots or are judging each other.

Then why are you mentioning them?



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.