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Forums - Movies & TV - Is Rey from Star Wars a Mary Sue?

Chrizum said:
Goodnightmoon said:

Soundwave already made excelent arguments of why some of those characters are clear Marty Stus and nobody cared (I wonder why lol), why am i going to waste my time doing the same when i already know the results? Also I'm working right now, not exactly the best moment to write an wall of text, I suggest people to watch Harry potter, James Bond and Matrix moviers again because it couldn't be more obvious why those guys can easily be considered Marty Stus yet nobody complained about them.

Her post wasn't so much about Mary Sues as it was about sexism and strong female roles. I'd recommend you read it because it actually addresses something significant instead of discussing semantics about hyped up empty terms.

I read her comment, she finds every detail that could discard Harry Potter from being a Marty Stus, the problem is, we can do the same with Rey.

Since I genuinaly don't have time to write a wall of text to explain everything i would like to explain and i don't feel encourged to do it since people here is only gonna try to find excuses to deny that all this debate wouldn't exist if she was a man and even threathening me with a ban, I'm going to copy-paste something I read weeks weeks ago and its totally aligned with my thoughts:

"(...) Rey is talented and smart, but she is also a flawed character. Much like Finn and Kylo Ren, she is trying to find her role in her own destiny.

As a result of being dropped off on a planet when she was just a child, Rey developed some serious abandonment issues. She hopelessly waits for a family that will never return to her and pushes herself away from new opportunities (like working for Han Solo) in pursuit of that dream. She displays her intellect and mechanical aptitude by learning the intricacies of the Millennium Falcon; being a scavenger, she digs through the insides of ships and sells their parts for a meal ticket. Despite having this knowledge, she doesn’t always get it right. When she attempts to close the doors of the ship in order to trap the gangs that are threatening to kill Han, she hits the wrong latches, unleashing Rathtars throughout the ship. She later amends for this mistake by saving Finn from one of them.

She is headstrong and competent, but fighting in hand-to-hand combat does not come easily to her. When she is attacked on Jakku by two creatures attempting to steal BB-8, one of them gets the jump on her. She fights back and holds her own, but there is still a struggle. When given a blaster, she fumbles with the safety and misfires before shooting at a Stormtrooper. As a pilot, she manages to slip away from the First Order, but she’s no Poe Dameron. She crashes the Millenium Falcon on lift-off.

When she gets her hands on Luke’s lightsaber and she fights Kylo Ren, she is struggling to keep up with him, even if he is bleeding from two injuries and just recently murdered his own father. All of her movements are indicative of someone who is retreating to survive—not someone fighting to win. She prevails because Kylo is overwrought with emotion—not because she has magical Mary Sue powers. Kylo wants to be like his grandfather, but he is not yet cold and calculating like Darth Vader. He is intimidating, but he can’t suck the air out of a room by just walking into it quite yet, which is made clear by Poe’s quips in their first scene together. He wields his power chaotically through a lightsaber that reflects his instability. He takes to anger easily and it leaves him vulnerable, which is why it is not a stretch that someone else who is force sensitive can challenge him. That, and he is not finished with his training. When Kylo tries to get into Rey’s head, she pushes him out because she has a strong connection to the force and he doesn’t have complete control over his own thoughts.

Much like Luke and Anakin before her, there is some suspension of disbelief. If we can believe that Luke can blow up the Death Star, then we can critique Rey performing a Jedi mind trick without boxing her into the role of Mary Sue. It is obvious to me that the movie takes pains to show Rey as a hero, but not a perfect and idealized one.

I find her character compelling because she shows fear, but she ultimately faces whatever challenge is awaiting her. Throughout the film, her and Finn are both running. He is fleeing from his past with the First Order and she is retreating back to a life that, while unfulfilling, seems safe and comfortable. They both entertain the idea of ousting themselves from the conflict but eventually overcome their fear because they are compelled to defeat the evil in the universe. At the end of the film when Finn and Han save her, Rey seems genuinely surprised that they came back for her because no one else has before.

When Rey picks up the lightsaber, she sees a little girl that was left alone in the universe. She is reminded of the family that left her behind, and gets a vision of a past that is unknown to her. At the end of The Force Awakens, Rey sees the same weapon that revealed her weaknesses and uses it to fight. She finally stops waiting."

http://wethenerdy.com/star-wars-no-rey-is-not-a-mary-sue/

And that's only from TFA, the strong abandonment issues she has become way more evident in the Last Jedi. If Harry Potter is not a Marty Stu for the reason Nymeria gave us, then why is Rey a Mary Sue? We know why, but now you can get banned for saying it.

Last edited by Goodnightmoon - on 15 January 2018

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Goodnightmoon said:
Chrizum said:

Please respond constructively to Nymeria's excellent post instead of throwing around empty arguments. I've seen you make well thought posts before so I know you are capable of it.

Soundwave already made excelent arguments of why some of those characters are clear Marty Stus and nobody cared (I wonder why lol), why am i going to waste my time doing the same when i already know the results? Also I'm working right now, not exactly the best moment to write an wall of text, I suggest people to watch Harry potter, James Bond and Matrix moviers again because it couldn't be more obvious why those guys can easily be considered Marty Stus yet nobody complained about them.

Yes sure, they didn't care... they answered and gave their refutation, while you are accusing all of being sexist... who really doesn't care about the arguments?

If you are at work, just answer later, or work instead of coming here to blame others... then later do a proper answer instead of copy and paste.... funny that everyone is doing their best to prove their point but seemly their are ignoring and not caring while you are the one that is caring a lot just don't put arguments, make accusations and paste other people arguments.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Goodnightmoon said:
Chrizum said:

Her post wasn't so much about Mary Sues as it was about sexism and strong female roles. I'd recommend you read it because it actually addresses something significant instead of discussing semantics about hyped up empty terms.

I read her comment, she finds every detail that could discard Harry Potter from being a Marty Stus, the problem is, we can do the same with Rey.

Since I genuinaly don't have time to write a wall of text to explain everything i would like to explain and i don't feel encourged to do it since people here is only gonna try to find excuses to deny that all this debate wouldn't exist if she was a man and even threathening me with a ban, I'm going to copy-paste something I read weeks weeks ago and its totally aligned with my thoughts:

"(...) Rey is talented and smart, but she is also a flawed character. Much like Finn and Kylo Ren, she is trying to find her role in her own destiny.

As a result of being dropped off on a planet when she was just a child, Rey developed some serious abandonment issues. She hopelessly waits for a family that will never return to her and pushes herself away from new opportunities (like working for Han Solo) in pursuit of that dream. She displays her intellect and mechanical aptitude by learning the intricacies of the Millennium Falcon; being a scavenger, she digs through the insides of ships and sells their parts for a meal ticket. Despite having this knowledge, she doesn’t always get it right. When she attempts to close the doors of the ship in order to trap the gangs that are threatening to kill Han, she hits the wrong latches, unleashing Rathtars throughout the ship. She later amends for this mistake by saving Finn from one of them.

She is headstrong and competent, but fighting in hand-to-hand combat does not come easily to her. When she is attacked on Jakku by two creatures attempting to steal BB-8, one of them gets the jump on her. She fights back and holds her own, but there is still a struggle. When given a blaster, she fumbles with the safety and misfires before shooting at a Stormtrooper. As a pilot, she manages to slip away from the First Order, but she’s no Poe Dameron. She crashes the Millenium Falcon on lift-off.

When she gets her hands on Luke’s lightsaber and she fights Kylo Ren, she is struggling to keep up with him, even if he is bleeding from two injuries and just recently murdered his own father. All of her movements are indicative of someone who is retreating to survive—not someone fighting to win. She prevails because Kylo is overwrought with emotion—not because she has magical Mary Sue powers. Kylo wants to be like his grandfather, but he is not yet cold and calculating like Darth Vader. He is intimidating, but he can’t suck the air out of a room by just walking into it quite yet, which is made clear by Poe’s quips in their first scene together. He wields his power chaotically through a lightsaber that reflects his instability. He takes to anger easily and it leaves him vulnerable, which is why it is not a stretch that someone else who is force sensitive can challenge him. That, and he is not finished with his training. When Kylo tries to get into Rey’s head, she pushes him out because she has a strong connection to the force and he doesn’t have complete control over his own thoughts.

Much like Luke and Anakin before her, there is some suspension of disbelief. If we can believe that Luke can blow up the Death Star, then we can critique Rey performing a Jedi mind trick without boxing her into the role of Mary Sue. It is obvious to me that the movie takes pains to show Rey as a hero, but not a perfect and idealized one.

I find her character compelling because she shows fear, but she ultimately faces whatever challenge is awaiting her. Throughout the film, her and Finn are both running. He is fleeing from his past with the First Order and she is retreating back to a life that, while unfulfilling, seems safe and comfortable. They both entertain the idea of ousting themselves from the conflict but eventually overcome their fear because they are compelled to defeat the evil in the universe. At the end of the film when Finn and Han save her, Rey seems genuinely surprised that they came back for her because no one else has before.

When Rey picks up the lightsaber, she sees a little girl that was left alone in the universe. She is reminded of the family that left her behind, and gets a vision of a past that is unknown to her. At the end of The Force Awakens, Rey sees the same weapon that revealed her weaknesses and uses it to fight. She finally stops waiting."

http://wethenerdy.com/star-wars-no-rey-is-not-a-mary-sue/

And that's only from TFA, the strong abandonment issues she has become way more evident in the Last Jedi. If Harry Potter is not a Marty Stu for the reason Nymeria gave us, then why is Rey a Mary Sue? We know why, but now you can get banned for saying it.

Since you just posted some whole points from another place (the points were already even posted twice before, and debunked over also)... I'll just give you two very easy to verify points.

1) Pick any gun and shoot for the first time, count how many times you'll take to become any level of decent.

2) Pick a sword (can be a katana if you'll), go against a 95 year old, very weak 8th dan master and fight him... even though his health is the worse possible you won't even be able to hold the sword properly much less hit him. So the bleeding Kylo (that was funnily enough chasing her around and jumping through) would still beat her very easily.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
Goodnightmoon said:

I read her comment, she finds every detail that could discard Harry Potter from being a Marty Stus, the problem is, we can do the same with Rey.

Since I genuinaly don't have time to write a wall of text to explain everything i would like to explain and i don't feel encourged to do it since people here is only gonna try to find excuses to deny that all this debate wouldn't exist if she was a man and even threathening me with a ban, I'm going to copy-paste something I read weeks weeks ago and its totally aligned with my thoughts:

"(...) Rey is talented and smart, but she is also a flawed character. Much like Finn and Kylo Ren, she is trying to find her role in her own destiny.

As a result of being dropped off on a planet when she was just a child, Rey developed some serious abandonment issues. She hopelessly waits for a family that will never return to her and pushes herself away from new opportunities (like working for Han Solo) in pursuit of that dream. She displays her intellect and mechanical aptitude by learning the intricacies of the Millennium Falcon; being a scavenger, she digs through the insides of ships and sells their parts for a meal ticket. Despite having this knowledge, she doesn’t always get it right. When she attempts to close the doors of the ship in order to trap the gangs that are threatening to kill Han, she hits the wrong latches, unleashing Rathtars throughout the ship. She later amends for this mistake by saving Finn from one of them.

She is headstrong and competent, but fighting in hand-to-hand combat does not come easily to her. When she is attacked on Jakku by two creatures attempting to steal BB-8, one of them gets the jump on her. She fights back and holds her own, but there is still a struggle. When given a blaster, she fumbles with the safety and misfires before shooting at a Stormtrooper. As a pilot, she manages to slip away from the First Order, but she’s no Poe Dameron. She crashes the Millenium Falcon on lift-off.

When she gets her hands on Luke’s lightsaber and she fights Kylo Ren, she is struggling to keep up with him, even if he is bleeding from two injuries and just recently murdered his own father. All of her movements are indicative of someone who is retreating to survive—not someone fighting to win. She prevails because Kylo is overwrought with emotion—not because she has magical Mary Sue powers. Kylo wants to be like his grandfather, but he is not yet cold and calculating like Darth Vader. He is intimidating, but he can’t suck the air out of a room by just walking into it quite yet, which is made clear by Poe’s quips in their first scene together. He wields his power chaotically through a lightsaber that reflects his instability. He takes to anger easily and it leaves him vulnerable, which is why it is not a stretch that someone else who is force sensitive can challenge him. That, and he is not finished with his training. When Kylo tries to get into Rey’s head, she pushes him out because she has a strong connection to the force and he doesn’t have complete control over his own thoughts.

Much like Luke and Anakin before her, there is some suspension of disbelief. If we can believe that Luke can blow up the Death Star, then we can critique Rey performing a Jedi mind trick without boxing her into the role of Mary Sue. It is obvious to me that the movie takes pains to show Rey as a hero, but not a perfect and idealized one.

I find her character compelling because she shows fear, but she ultimately faces whatever challenge is awaiting her. Throughout the film, her and Finn are both running. He is fleeing from his past with the First Order and she is retreating back to a life that, while unfulfilling, seems safe and comfortable. They both entertain the idea of ousting themselves from the conflict but eventually overcome their fear because they are compelled to defeat the evil in the universe. At the end of the film when Finn and Han save her, Rey seems genuinely surprised that they came back for her because no one else has before.

When Rey picks up the lightsaber, she sees a little girl that was left alone in the universe. She is reminded of the family that left her behind, and gets a vision of a past that is unknown to her. At the end of The Force Awakens, Rey sees the same weapon that revealed her weaknesses and uses it to fight. She finally stops waiting."

http://wethenerdy.com/star-wars-no-rey-is-not-a-mary-sue/

And that's only from TFA, the strong abandonment issues she has become way more evident in the Last Jedi. If Harry Potter is not a Marty Stu for the reason Nymeria gave us, then why is Rey a Mary Sue? We know why, but now you can get banned for saying it.

Since you just posted some whole points from another place (the points were already even posted twice before, and debunked over also)... I'll just give you two very easy to verify points.

1) Pick any gun and shoot for the first time, count how many times you'll take to become any level of decent.

2) Pick a sword (can be a katana if you'll), go against a 95 year old, very weak 8th dan master and fight him... even though his health is the worse possible you won't even be able to hold the sword properly much less hit him. So the bleeding Kylo (that was funnily enough chasing her around and jumping through) would still beat her very easily.

I would bet a million dollars that he doesn't know what a Mary Sue even is or what sexist means cosidering how he's using the terms.



Aeolus451 said:
DonFerrari said:

Since you just posted some whole points from another place (the points were already even posted twice before, and debunked over also)... I'll just give you two very easy to verify points.

1) Pick any gun and shoot for the first time, count how many times you'll take to become any level of decent.

2) Pick a sword (can be a katana if you'll), go against a 95 year old, very weak 8th dan master and fight him... even though his health is the worse possible you won't even be able to hold the sword properly much less hit him. So the bleeding Kylo (that was funnily enough chasing her around and jumping through) would still beat her very easily.

I would bet a million dollars that he doesn't know what a Mary Sue even is or what sexist means cosidering how he's using the terms.

Mary Sue: An excessively idealized woman character with no notable defects that gets all the attention of the story and is usually overpowered or more skilled than the rest of the characters, usually is an idealized alter-ego of the author which most of the times is a woman. When men characters follow this pattern they are called Marty Stus, a term that is almost never use for mysterious reasons that can be blamed on... Sexism: Discrimination based on a person sex or gender.







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Aeolus451 said:
DonFerrari said:

Since you just posted some whole points from another place (the points were already even posted twice before, and debunked over also)... I'll just give you two very easy to verify points.

1) Pick any gun and shoot for the first time, count how many times you'll take to become any level of decent.

2) Pick a sword (can be a katana if you'll), go against a 95 year old, very weak 8th dan master and fight him... even though his health is the worse possible you won't even be able to hold the sword properly much less hit him. So the bleeding Kylo (that was funnily enough chasing her around and jumping through) would still beat her very easily.

I would bet a million dollars that he doesn't know what a Mary Sue even is or what sexist means cosidering how he's using the terms.

Seems like it, he put an internet definition to try to cover it, but kept the idea that is all sexism

Goodnightmoon said:
Aeolus451 said:

I would bet a million dollars that he doesn't know what a Mary Sue even is or what sexist means cosidering how he's using the terms.

Mary Sue: An excessively idealized woman character with no notable defects that gets all the attention of the story and is usually overpowered or more skilled than the rest of the characters, usually is an idealized alter-ego of the author which most of the times is a woman. When men characters follow this pattern they are called Marty Stus, a term that is almost never use for mysterious reasons that can be blamed on... Sexism: Discrimination based on a person sex or gender.

Yes Mary Sue are women... Men are Gary Stu, your point?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Goodnightmoon said:
Aeolus451 said:

I would bet a million dollars that he doesn't know what a Mary Sue even is or what sexist means cosidering how he's using the terms.

Mary Sue: An excessively idealized woman character with no notable defects that gets all the attention of the story and is usually overpowered or more skilled than the rest of the characters, usually is an idealized alter-ego of the author which most of the times is a woman. When men characters follow this pattern they are called Marty Stus, a term that is almost never use for mysterious reasons that can be blamed on... Sexism: Discrimination based on a person sex or gender.





Good boy. At least I know you can use google but you still don't quite get them. Otherwise, you would see why she's a Mary Sue. Even Soundwave acknowledged that she is one and that her character doesn't make sense within the sw universe but he's fine with it. Why are you debating this still when you've been shown that you're wrong on this by more than a few people and you're resorting to calling us sexist when we're clearly not?



Goodnightmoon said:

To suggest Rey is an excessively idealized female character and she sucks for that but then to deny Neo, Harry Potter or James Bond are excessively idealized males characters already proves my point, most of this complainst have a base on pure sexism, with her people tries to find every single little detail of why she is a Mary Sue, with them everybody does the exact opposite, try to find every little detail to prove why they aren't Marty Stus even when they clearly are if we apply the same values for all cases.

I cannot comment on Neo since I'm not terribly familiar with Matrix. I saw the film ages ago and have forgotten most of it. I'm also not terribly familiar with James Bond.

Harry Potter, I've read the books and I will say IF Harry Potter had aced everything he went up against at Hogwarts and everyone loved him early on, I'd agree that he was a Gary Stu. He wasn't though. He wasn't the best at his subjects and not everyone liked him. Hermione was smarter and Snape hated him.

This is perfectly illustrated in the following clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6oMfkHviqE

Had he been absolutely knowledgeable at all his subjects from day one much like Rey was skilled in so many areas since day one, I would have agreed but Harry started from zero and worked his way up much like Luke and unlike Rey who just gets force powers out of the blue other characters had to work towards learning.

I'll also share with you someone who is regularly considered a Gary Stu:

Kirito from Sword Art Online. I watched a bit of SAO some time ago and recall him survive situations where countless others get destroyed. The following forum discusses him: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13322219670A23888900&page=21



Goodnightmoon said:

To suggest Rey is an excessively idealized female character and she sucks for that but then to deny Neo, Harry Potter or James Bond are excessively idealized males characters already proves my point, most of this complainst have a base on pure sexism, with her people tries to find every single little detail of why she is a Mary Sue, with them everybody does the exact opposite, try to find every little detail to prove why they aren't Marty Stus even when they clearly are if we apply the same values for all cases.

Also, I invite you to review a post, below, I made earlier in the thread on things like establishing a universe: Luke helped establish the Star Wars universe, Hit Girl helped establish the Kick Ass universe, Harry helped establish the rules in the HP universe.

Rey didn't establish the SW universe, she entered it and began breaking the rules such as one doesn't just attain force powers, they must be learned much like how Luke had to learn in training with Obi-Wan and Yoda.

KLAMarine said:
Goodnightmoon said:

I don't really think so but if we have to consider that she is Mary Sue then we have to consider that mainstream cinema is plenty of Marty Stus, but nobody ever complain nearly as much about those cause you know, they were men.

Or perhaps because these Marty Stus you speak of were not in the Star Wars universe but rather in their own universe with its own set of rules and their own CAPABLE antagonists who give the protagonist considerable difficulty.

You know who comes close to Mary Sueness? Hit Girl from the film Kick Ass: she defies odds and does things no kid her age should be able to do much like Rey does things with the force no newcomer should be able to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JfjO1PZxXc

One key difference?

Hit Girl gets rescued:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiuIU_88rNw

To add to that, Star Wars was always a franchise to be taken seriously while Kick Ass was more of a comedy-action type of film. The tones are different and the rules are different too: Luke helped establish the rules in the SW universe and in Kick Ass, Big Daddy helps establish the rules there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1E6GiB_BPU

 

I love Hit Girl and can't stand Rey in part because Hit Girl, even as ridiculous as the universe she is in can be, shows she's not untouchable and needs help in the end but Rey is always able to help herself when her predecessor, Luke, demonstrates several times that he too is in need of help. Help that was so vital, it saved his life.

 

To hell with Rey.



KLAMarine said:
Goodnightmoon said:

To suggest Rey is an excessively idealized female character and she sucks for that but then to deny Neo, Harry Potter or James Bond are excessively idealized males characters already proves my point, most of this complainst have a base on pure sexism, with her people tries to find every single little detail of why she is a Mary Sue, with them everybody does the exact opposite, try to find every little detail to prove why they aren't Marty Stus even when they clearly are if we apply the same values for all cases.

I cannot comment on Neo since I'm not terribly familiar with Matrix. I saw the film ages ago and have forgotten most of it. I'm also not terribly familiar with James Bond.

Harry Potter, I've read the books and I will say IF Harry Potter had aced everything he went up against at Hogwarts and everyone loved him early on, I'd agree that he was a Gary Stu. He wasn't though. He wasn't the best at his subjects and not everyone liked him. Hermione was smarter and Snape hated him.

This is perfectly illustrated in the following clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6oMfkHviqE

Had he been absolutely knowledgeable at all his subjects from day one much like Rey was skilled in so many areas since day one, I would have agreed but Harry started from zero and worked his way up much like Luke and unlike Rey who just gets force powers out of the blue other characters had to work towards learning.

I'll also share with you someone who is regularly considered a Gary Stu:

Kirito from Sword Art Online. I watched a bit of SAO some time ago and recall him survive situations where countless others get destroyed. The following forum discusses him: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13322219670A23888900&page=21

Yes, Kirito is also one. That sort of character is fairly normal in anime but they are much better written than they are in films or comics. 😎 One of the best examples of a Gary Stu is Superman. Another good example of a Mary Sue is Wonder woman from the new film.