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Forums - Movies & TV - Is Rey from Star Wars a Mary Sue?

Aeolus451 said:
Soundwave said:

Neo isn't a weakling at the beginning of the Matrix. He fails the first jump but that's it. He only fails because he doesn't trust in his inate powers. 

The very first time he spars with Morpheus it's clear to the audience that he's already more powerful than Morpheus who's presumably the most powerful of the "good guys". 

The only thing he has to do is believe in himself and he can basically beat anyone, it's pre-destined in him.

Harry Potter beats Dracoy at quiddich right away and becomes like the best little wizard in Hogwarts within a week, lol.

Gimme a break with this shit.

This is a common archetype, the messiah/Chosen One/Golden Child archetype, it's just not commonly applied to women.

The only lesson for Harry Potter/Neo is not that they needed to work hard, it's that they were already better than everyone else, they just needed to believe it. That's the character arc, like it or not. 

You're conflating several types of characters into something that doesn't exist because you don't know the differences. Harry and Neo are not the same type of character nor are they Gary Stus.

Harry is the classic kind of hero who relies on his allies and friends to accomplish most of everything. Without them, he would fail. He has modest abilities of his own.

Neo is the prophetized hero who supposed to save mankind and destroy the machines. He makes a lot of big mistakes including creating the very thing that can wipe out everything and he doesn't accomplish much in destroying the machines. He only managed a truce at the cost of his life while defeating the archvillian he created.

A Mary Sue or Gary Stu is the perfect hero that rarely ever makes any mistakes or has actual flaws. They are the ideal hero. They generally have overpowered abilities but not always. They don't rely much on others because they don't have to. This type of character is common in comic books, anime and in films. 

A Stu doesn't make sense within sw because none of the characters are Stus. All of the protagonists were deeply flawed and imperfect. They failed more often than not. Rey is too perfect and powerful. She was able to use force powers and win in a lightsaber duel without training. She's a poorly written character that doesn't make any sense in the sw universe. That's why a lot of people don't like her.

And there a lot of people who do like her character just fine. I'll take Rey over Mannequin Skywalker moaning about sand or kisses or his bad dreams (will someone just throw this kid into a lava pit already?). 

I like the first Matrix, it's better than any Star Wars film aside from the first three by a good margin, so I don't have a problem with that character type. 



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thismeintiel said:
KLAMarine said:

So Rey didn't have to train because she's some sort of archetype? The force breaks the fourth wall and sides with her because the script is telling it to?

The force is becoming a get-out-of-jail-free card and can be used by Rey who didn't need to train to use it. It wasn't like this with the original trilogy where Luke had to train on how to use it.

It's not even like that with Space Jesus, Anakin. And it is never stated that the Force has a will of its own. It's just an energy that surrounds everything that some can connect with. Even in the prequel trilogy, it is some Jedi prophecy, which turned out wrong, not the Force, saying Anakin is the chosen one. It's also implied that Darth Plagueis created him by toying with the Force to create life. Seems that would greatly swing the Force in their favor. The balance is for Force users to keep, not some sentient matter that likes fucking with people. Just a poor device to try to cover up for a Mary Sue. 

I'll take your word for it. I've tried to block out anything to do with the prequels.



Aeolus451 said:
Soundwave said:

Neo isn't a weakling at the beginning of the Matrix. He fails the first jump but that's it. He only fails because he doesn't trust in his inate powers. 

The very first time he spars with Morpheus it's clear to the audience that he's already more powerful than Morpheus who's presumably the most powerful of the "good guys". 

The only thing he has to do is believe in himself and he can basically beat anyone, it's pre-destined in him.

Harry Potter beats Dracoy at quiddich right away and becomes like the best little wizard in Hogwarts within a week, lol.

Gimme a break with this shit.

This is a common archetype, the messiah/Chosen One/Golden Child archetype, it's just not commonly applied to women.

The only lesson for Harry Potter/Neo is not that they needed to work hard, it's that they were already better than everyone else, they just needed to believe it. That's the character arc, like it or not. 

You're conflating several types of characters into something that doesn't exist because you don't know the differences. Harry and Neo are not the same type of character nor are they Gary Stus.

Harry is the classic kind of hero who relies on his allies and friends to accomplish most of everything. Without them, he would fail. He has modest abilities of his own.

Neo is the prophetized hero who supposed to save mankind and destroy the machines. He makes a lot of big mistakes including creating the very thing that can wipe out everything and he doesn't accomplish much in destroying the machines. He only managed a truce at the cost of his life while defeating the archvillian he created.

A Mary Sue or Gary Stu is the perfect hero that rarely ever makes any mistakes or has actual flaws. They are the ideal hero. They generally have overpowered abilities but not always. They don't rely much on others because they don't have to. This type of character is common in comic books, anime and in films. 

A Stu doesn't make sense within sw because none of the characters are Stus. All of the protagonists were deeply flawed and imperfect. They failed more often than not. Rey is too perfect and powerful. She was able to use force powers and win in a lightsaber duel without training. She's a poorly written character that doesn't make any sense in the sw universe. That's why a lot of people don't like her.

Ding ding. We have a winner. The effort to try and prove that most of the people who don't like Rey's character are sexist is just ridiculous. And the extremes people go to do it, claiming everyone powerful in a movie is a Mary/Gary Sue/Stu (some people even try throwing Luke in there), is even more ridiculous. 



KLAMarine said:
thismeintiel said:

It's not even like that with Space Jesus, Anakin. And it is never stated that the Force has a will of its own. It's just an energy that surrounds everything that some can connect with. Even in the prequel trilogy, it is some Jedi prophecy, which turned out wrong, not the Force, saying Anakin is the chosen one. It's also implied that Darth Plagueis created him by toying with the Force to create life. Seems that would greatly swing the Force in their favor. The balance is for Force users to keep, not some sentient matter that likes fucking with people. Just a poor device to try to cover up for a Mary Sue. 

I'll take your word for it. I've tried to block out anything to do with the prequels.

I don't blame you. They had some good ideas in them, they were just executed horribly. 



The Force isn't some inanimate Force. It's clearly stated in the prequels that it gets Shmi Skywalker pregnant, lol. Sorry but that argument doesn't fly.

Anyways, these movies are kid fantasies, if you dislike them so much maybe graduate up and actually watch real movies without fucking spaceships and lightsabers and superheroes. 



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Soundwave said:
Aeolus451 said:

You're conflating several types of characters into something that doesn't exist because you don't know the differences. Harry and Neo are not the same type of character nor are they Gary Stus.

Harry is the classic kind of hero who relies on his allies and friends to accomplish most of everything. Without them, he would fail. He has modest abilities of his own.

Neo is the prophetized hero who supposed to save mankind and destroy the machines. He makes a lot of big mistakes including creating the very thing that can wipe out everything and he doesn't accomplish much in destroying the machines. He only managed a truce at the cost of his life while defeating the archvillian he created.

A Mary Sue or Gary Stu is the perfect hero that rarely ever makes any mistakes or has actual flaws. They are the ideal hero. They generally have overpowered abilities but not always. They don't rely much on others because they don't have to. This type of character is common in comic books, anime and in films. 

A Stu doesn't make sense within sw because none of the characters are Stus. All of the protagonists were deeply flawed and imperfect. They failed more often than not. Rey is too perfect and powerful. She was able to use force powers and win in a lightsaber duel without training. She's a poorly written character that doesn't make any sense in the sw universe. That's why a lot of people don't like her.

And there a lot of people who do like her character just fine. I'll take Rey over Mannequin Skywalker moaning about sand or kisses or his bad dreams (will someone just throw this kid into a lava pit already?). 

I like the first Matrix, it's better than any Star Wars film aside from the first three by a good margin, so I don't have a problem with that character type. 

So you're acknowledging that she's a Mary Sue and her character doesn't make sense in the sw universe but you like her anyway? That's cool. Whatever floats your boat.



Aeolus451 said:
Soundwave said:

And there a lot of people who do like her character just fine. I'll take Rey over Mannequin Skywalker moaning about sand or kisses or his bad dreams (will someone just throw this kid into a lava pit already?). 

I like the first Matrix, it's better than any Star Wars film aside from the first three by a good margin, so I don't have a problem with that character type. 

So you're acknowledging that she's a Mary Sue and her character doesn't make sense in the sw universe but you like her anyway? That's cool. Whatever floats your boat.

Yes, it's almost like it's only a fucking movie. 

The sequels are better than the prequels and that's all anyone was ever going to get. Some people treat this like it's supposed to be a religious experience, it's freaking kids movie at its core and Lucas got lucky with several things in the OT that were lucky accidents that are never happening again. 

For people who are so unhappy I would say maybe expand your horizons, there are actually movies for adults without lightsabers and spaceships in them. Many of them. 

Last edited by Soundwave - on 14 January 2018

Soundwave said:
The Force isn't some inanimate Force. It's clearly stated in the prequels that it gets Shmi Skywalker pregnant, lol. Sorry but that argument doesn't fly.

It's also implied that Darth Plagueis is the one who created him by using the Force. The Force didn't knock some woman up on its own. Of course, the prequels were crap that also shat on some of the lore, so I don't know why you want to use bad writing to cover up more bad writing. 



thismeintiel said:
Soundwave said:
The Force isn't some inanimate Force. It's clearly stated in the prequels that it gets Shmi Skywalker pregnant, lol. Sorry but that argument doesn't fly.

It's also implied that Darth Plagueis is the one who created him by using the Force. The Force didn't knock some woman up on its own. Of course, the prequels were crap that also shat on some of the lore, so I don't know why you want to use bad writing to cover up more bad writing. 

So why give a fuck then?

That's what by your logic ... 5 or 6 straight bad Star Wars movies that "shit on the lore"? 

Here's a mind blowing fact ... the original Star Wars trilogy was a fluke in a lot of ways. Lucas didn't have any of that shit figured out, Vader was not Luke's father even in the original draft of Empire Strikes Back. He just made shit up on the fly and it was lightning in a bottle and that will never happen again. 

You can either choose to enjoy the new ones for what they are or you can be miserable that they're never going to reach the level of the OT. It's not happening. 



Soundwave said:
Aeolus451 said:

So you're acknowledging that she's a Mary Sue and her character doesn't make sense in the sw universe but you like her anyway? That's cool. Whatever floats your boat.

Yes, it's almost like it's only a fucking movie. 

The sequels are better than the prequels and that's all anyone was ever going to get. Some people treat this like it's supposed to be a religious experience, it's freaking kids movie at its core and Lucas got lucky with several things in the OT that were lucky accidents that are never happening again. 

That's all I wanted. It's cool that you think that way but there's plenty of others who don't like the new films. People should be able to respect each other's opinions.