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Forums - Movies & TV - The Fans Have Spoken, Last Jedi Drops A Massive 68%

DakonBlackblade on 01 January 2018
epicurean said:
DakonBlackblade said:

Saying that evidence of a backlash having any negative impact is that this movie sis not managing to do the same number sas the second greatest BO of all time and the bigest USA BO of all times is shortsighted ot say the least. TLJ will likely end in the 1.3 - 1.5 bil neighborhood, and thats considering it had none of the years of no Star Wars that ep VII had and that it is the second movie ina  trilogy, wich is historicaly always the worst performer out of a 3 parter.

Just stop, there sis not way to ingluence or to "buy" millions of critics from hundreds of different countrys. This bulshit conspiracy theoru has gone too far. Disney somehow always buy critics and yet Warner doesn't. Seriously ppl the answer here isn't some crazy scheme, it is the simple fact the movie is great. is it quite different from the usual Star Wars film ? Ye it definetly is. But all that aside, as a movie, evaluating solely what is being present on screen, it is a fantastic piece of cinema.

" millions of critics" - uhhhhh?

I just feel like we must have seen different movies. I don't want there to be conspiracies or anything, but that movie was really, really bad. Like I said, I've never had such a disconnect with critics before, and there seems to be a lot of other people who feel the same. I don't know what this "smear" campaign is you're talking about, other than people just really hated the movie.

Little thing called hyperbole (why is it that ppl always need you to explain this when you use hyperbole, if you see a exagerated large number describing something asume it was intentional and was used as a figure of speech for shock valu ppl, it will do you good).

Technically speeking the movie is fantantisc, as a Star Wars movie ppl can think whatever they want, but the cinematography, scene composition, score, editting and whatnot is some of the best ever seen. The critics are not judging if this is the Star Wars hardcore fans wanted to see, they are judging if it is a good movie, and it is. It is that simple.

Also ppl didn't hate the movie, ppl actualy loved it, the movie ahs an A cinemascore, cinamascore is the ppls opinion, the actual ppl, not Star Wars hardcore fans or forum goers who liek to always voice their opinion when they are discontent with something.



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Angelus on 01 January 2018
DakonBlackblade said:
irstupid said:

From what I've read (haven't seen the movie yet) Star Wars fans are upset by what they did to Luke mostly. 

The movie sounds like it has a lot of plot holes and what not, but the biggest fault seems to be the Luke aspect.

Think of the DC movies for example. How many people HATE HATE HATE the new movies because that isn't their superman, or that isn't hteir batman. Too dark, killing, ect.

The same for Star Wars. Luke is the Superman/Batman of that universe. You need to treat him with respect. If you make him into something everyone (Mark Hamill included) doesn't like, then they will hate the movie. 

Compare the treatment of Luke Skywalker to the treatment of Deadpool in Wolverine Origins. 

Theres no paralel with the DC movies whatsoever, the DC movies are bad movies. Visual effects are bad, plot is nonsensical, some of the acting is poor, editting is terrible (Suicide Squad is so badly editted it almost can't be considered a movie at all) and whatnot. Star Wars the Last Jedi on the other hand is a great movie, the critics love it cause it is a beatfully done piece of cinema,  the cinematography in some scenes is amongst the very best ever to grace our eyes, thats not hyperbole, there is a very real chance TLJ grabs some technical Oscars. The movie takes a lot of liberties and does a plethora of unexpected things regarding Star Wars lore tough, and since hardcore fans believe they are the owners of all Star Wars lore and if you do anything they don't agree with you need to burn in the Seven Circles of Hell, the movie is getting backlash, its pretty simple to understand.

Despite any of that it has flown over 1 billion $ worldwide already (surpassing Rogue One's total numbers within 2 weeks of release). Considering we always knew it would never reach anywhere near Force Awakens numbers (all the years of anticipation don't exist anymore and it is the second movie in a trilogy, historicaly always the least hyped of a 3 parter) its doing amazingly well even with the crazy fans rantting and smear campaign.

You are right that Last Jedi is fantastic on a technical level. It is very beautifully directed, and the visual design is stunning. I also think all the actors do a good job with what they're given.

Lets not pretend though that the plot is in any way above a DC movie. It REALLY isn't. That's not even subjective. The entire plot of the last Jedi wouldn't happen if any of the people in it behaved like actual human beings. That is a fact. The movie just expects you not to care, because it's so pretty. That's not even going into all the minutia of how it breaks the continuity of Star Wars as it's been presented to this point.



epicurean on 01 January 2018
DakonBlackblade said:
epicurean said:

" millions of critics" - uhhhhh?

I just feel like we must have seen different movies. I don't want there to be conspiracies or anything, but that movie was really, really bad. Like I said, I've never had such a disconnect with critics before, and there seems to be a lot of other people who feel the same. I don't know what this "smear" campaign is you're talking about, other than people just really hated the movie.

Little thing called hyperbole (why is it that ppl always need you to explain this when you use hyperbole, if you see a exagerated large number describing somethign asume ti wa sintentional and was used as a figure of speech ppl, it will do you good).

Technically speeking the movie is fantantisc, as a Star Wars movie ppl can think whatever they want, but the cinematography, scene composition, score, editting and whatnot is some of the best ever seen. The critics are not judging if this is the Star Wars hardcore fans wanted to see, they are judging if it is a good movie, and it is. It is that simple.

I'll give you cinematography, editing, and all that. Transformers do all that too. The plot was horrible, the acting was, well, usual Star Wars level-acting, other than Kylo Ren there was no character development whatsoever, and everyone is basically where they started when the movie began.

I've really tried to understand what it is people like about the movie. I've talked to a lot of people who did IRL, and I really haven't gotten any clear answers. Critics seem to like that they "took risks", but none of them paid off (at least for me). What they did with Kylo/Snoke/Rey was cool, and if Kylo/Rey would've continued down a path together, then I probably would've applauded that (that would actually be something new and interesting). Instead it seems like it was just a Red Herring just to get rid of a character that everyone was dying to learn more about.

I just don't get it. Please try and explain, in detail, why you liked it. Generalities don't help, as anyone could say that about any movie if you don't have to back it up.



Owner of PS4 Pro, Xbox One, Switch, PS Vita, and 3DS

thismeintiel on 01 January 2018
DakonBlackblade said:
thismeintiel said:

And you state your opinion without evidence. You are right that Disney knows the business. If they honestly believed the calender was all it took to be 31% down after just 17 days, which amounts to being $450M+ down, they wouldn't release it at this time of year. The fact is the calendar means jack. Xmas eve and New Year's eve is just two days. There are plenty of days for people to go watch if they wanted to, which would  make up a lot of the losses. Instead they only grew.

And no, my argument comes down to an obvious fan backlash, which has manifested itself in low user ratings, countless negative YouTube videos and tweets, and a massive drop in BO revenue. It also includes comparisons to the OG trilogy. At 5 weeks in, ESB was 230% above ANH, $47.3M VS $20.5M.  ANH followed a trajectory more like Avatar, where it opened lower, but stayed consistent. ESB followed one more like the common blockbuster, opening big and then seeing declines, though it saw small ones and a few rises.  At 41 weeks, ANH was only $6.1M above ESB, meaning that if ESB was only out in theaters for 41 weeks, it would only be down by 3%.  But, for the sake of argument, let's say it had a full year, or 52 weeks (I can't really find any concrete data on how long its initial run was), at the theater. If we had all the data, I would not be surprised that that gap only grew to being 10%-15% down. The only reason it grew to 32% is because ANH had an extra ~6 months at the box office.

So, you guys can continue to have your blinders on and believe there is no backlash and only the calendar (lol) caused the movie to be this far off, but I choose to live in the real world. Also, the foreign markets don't care about SW? Bwahahaha. That's a riot, man. You here all week?  

Saying that evidence of a backlash having any negative impact is that this movies is not managing to do the same number as the second greatest BO of all time and the bigest USA BO of all time is shortsighted to say the least. Ep VIII will likely end in the 1.3 - 1.5 bil neighborhood, and thats considering it had none of the anticipation built over the years of no Star Wars that ep VII had and that it is the second movie in a trilogy, wich is historicaly always the worst performer out of a 3 parter. If the backlash is affecting BO its is having no engative effect whatsoever, this movie is faring as well as could be expected, considering its second week overall numbers maybe even a bit better than that since it has already surpassed Rogue One in this short amount of time.

KLAMarine said: 

Star Wars is a huge franchise and having access to that franchise means needing to go through Disney. Not everyone is invited to a press screening, a privilege that can be revoked at any time which means your review gets out later than all the other reviews which in turn costs you visits of your review website.

That's one way critics could be influenced.

Just stop, there is no way to influence or to "buy" millions of critics from hundreds of different countrys around the world. This bulshit conspiracy theory has gone too far. Disney somehow always buy critics and yet Warner, Sony and other studios don't, its nonsensical to the extreme that anyone actualy believes that. Seriously ppl the answer here isn't some crazy scheme, it is the simple fact the movie is great. Is it different from the usual Star Wars film ? Ye it definetly is, very different Id say so. But all that aside, as a movie, evaluating solely what is being presented on screen, it is a fantastic piece of cinema.

Except ESB did better that ROTJ WW, and would not have been down as much if it and ANH had the same time in theaters. Again, not excuses TLJ can use. What's really pathetic is this movie may just match ESB, inflation adjusted, even though the foreign and domestic markets have expanded so much. Something TFA took advantage of, but TLJ was just not good enough for it to matter.

But, you just keep those blinders on.



 

DakonBlackblade on 01 January 2018
Angelus said:

You are right that Last Jedi is fantastic on a technical level. It is very beautifully directed, and the visual design is stunning. I also think all the actors do a good job with what they're given.

Lets not pretend though that the plot is in any way above a DC movie. It REALLY isn't. That's not even subjective. The entire plot of the last Jedi wouldn't happen if any of the people in it behaved like actual human beings. That is a fact. The movie just expects you not to care, because it's so pretty. That's not even going into all the minutia of how it breaks the continuity of Star Wars as it's been presented to this point.

Thats not true at all, the movie have a very clear motiff, the young spuring on the elders and the elders teaching the young. Every single one of the 3 new protagonists make terrible decisions because they haven't listened to theier elders and they all fail their quests. However their energy and impetus motivate the elders to never give up and in the end of the movie all 3 new protagonists have learned from the elders and have grown in some significant and evident way (Poe more so than anyone else). Are there conviniences and Ex machinas on the script ? Ye sure, but I dare you to find one script ever that doesn't. Its highly unlikelly that Ep VIII will win awards for its script, but it has a very solid one, it does exactly what it set out to do and the character arcs all lead somewhere withitm the movie. 

Last edited by DakonBlackblade - on 01 January 2018

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epicurean on 01 January 2018
DakonBlackblade said:
Angelus said:

You are right that Last Jedi is fantastic on a technical level. It is very beautifully directed, and the visual design is stunning. I also think all the actors do a good job with what they're given.

Lets not pretend though that the plot is in any way above a DC movie. It REALLY isn't. That's not even subjective. The entire plot of the last Jedi wouldn't happen if any of the people in it behaved like actual human beings. That is a fact. The movie just expects you not to care, because it's so pretty. That's not even going into all the minutia of how it breaks the continuity of Star Wars as it's been presented to this point.

Thats not true at all, the movie have a very clear motiff, the young spuring on the elders and the elders teaching the young. Every single one of the 3 new protagonists make terrible decision because they ahven't listened to theier elders and they all fail their quests. However thei energy and impetus motivate the elders to never give up and in the end of the movie all 3 new protagonists have learned from the elders and have grown in some significant and evident way (Poe more so than anyone else). Are there conviniences and Ex machinas on the scrip, ye sure but I dare you to find one script ever that doesn't. Its highly unlikedly that Ep VIII will win awards for its script, but it has a very solid one, it does exactly what it set out to do and the character arcs all lead somewhere withitm the movie. 

What did Rey learn from Luke (or anyone, really)? What terrible decision did she make? She was right about everything except Kylo turning, even though it could be argued he did turn to some degree. 



Owner of PS4 Pro, Xbox One, Switch, PS Vita, and 3DS

DakonBlackblade on 01 January 2018
thismeintiel said:
DakonBlackblade said:

Saying that evidence of a backlash having any negative impact is that this movies is not managing to do the same number as the second greatest BO of all time and the bigest USA BO of all time is shortsighted to say the least. Ep VIII will likely end in the 1.3 - 1.5 bil neighborhood, and thats considering it had none of the anticipation built over the years of no Star Wars that ep VII had and that it is the second movie in a trilogy, wich is historicaly always the worst performer out of a 3 parter. If the backlash is affecting BO its is having no engative effect whatsoever, this movie is faring as well as could be expected, considering its second week overall numbers maybe even a bit better than that since it has already surpassed Rogue One in this short amount of time.

Just stop, there is no way to influence or to "buy" millions of critics from hundreds of different countrys around the world. This bulshit conspiracy theory has gone too far. Disney somehow always buy critics and yet Warner, Sony and other studios don't, its nonsensical to the extreme that anyone actualy believes that. Seriously ppl the answer here isn't some crazy scheme, it is the simple fact the movie is great. Is it different from the usual Star Wars film ? Ye it definetly is, very different Id say so. But all that aside, as a movie, evaluating solely what is being presented on screen, it is a fantastic piece of cinema.

Except ESB did better that ROTJ WW, and would not have been down as much if it and ANH had the same time in theaters. Again, not excuses TLJ can use. What's really pathetic is this movie may just match ESB, inflation adjusted, even though the foreign and domestic markets have expanded so much. Something TFA took advantage of, but TLJ was just not good enough for it to matter.

But, you just keep those blinders on.

Your new argument is that ESB did worse than New Hope so it doesn't make sense that Ep VIII is doing worse than VII is a bit hard to uderstand, who cares if ESB stayed longer or not than NW on theathers, it did worse end of history. And don't adjust to inflation that makes 0 sense, the world has changed dramatically, its stupid to asume a movie would have any kind of similar sucess in today's market and therefor just updatign the numbers is OK.

Ep VII BO's is not a parameter to any movie, it is as stupid as ppl using Avatar as a parameter to compare EP VII two years ago. Outliers are just that, you can't compare anythign to them.



epicurean on 01 January 2018
mZuzek said:
epicurean said:

I'll give you cinematography, editing, and all that. Transformers do all that too. The plot was horrible, the acting was, well, usual Star Wars level-acting, other than Kylo Ren there was no character development whatsoever, and everyone is basically where they started when the movie began.

I've really tried to understand what it is people like about the movie. I've talked to a lot of people who did IRL, and I really haven't gotten any clear answers. Critics seem to like that they "took risks", but none of them paid off (at least for me). What they did with Kylo/Snoke/Rey was cool, and if Kylo/Rey would've continued down a path together, then I probably would've applauded that (that would actually be something new and interesting). Instead it seems like it was just a Red Herring just to get rid of a character that everyone was dying to learn more about.

Agree with your second paragraph, but you couldn't have started your post any worse. Transformers doesn't have good cinematography at all, it only has high-budget special effects and those are really not the same.

Sorry, been awhile since I've actually watched them (once in the theater was enough, and didn't even watch the last two).



Owner of PS4 Pro, Xbox One, Switch, PS Vita, and 3DS

Mr.GameCrazy on 01 January 2018
mZuzek said:
Angelus said:

You are right that Last Jedi is fantastic on a technical level. It is very beautifully directed, and the visual design is stunning. I also think all the actors do a good job with what they're given.

Lets not pretend though that the plot is in any way above a DC movie. It REALLY isn't. That's not even subjective. The entire plot of the last Jedi wouldn't happen if any of the people in it behaved like actual human beings. That is a fact. The movie just expects you not to care, because it's so pretty. That's not even going into all the minutia of how it breaks the continuity of Star Wars as it's been presented to this point.

I can already see the next excuse. "But they're not human beings!"

BUT THEY'RE NOT HUMAN BEINGS!! :P



Angelus on 01 January 2018
DakonBlackblade said:
Angelus said:

You are right that Last Jedi is fantastic on a technical level. It is very beautifully directed, and the visual design is stunning. I also think all the actors do a good job with what they're given.

Lets not pretend though that the plot is in any way above a DC movie. It REALLY isn't. That's not even subjective. The entire plot of the last Jedi wouldn't happen if any of the people in it behaved like actual human beings. That is a fact. The movie just expects you not to care, because it's so pretty. That's not even going into all the minutia of how it breaks the continuity of Star Wars as it's been presented to this point.

Thats not true at all, the movie have a very clear motiff, the young spuring on the elders and the elders teaching the young. Every single one of the 3 new protagonists make terrible decision because they ahven't listened to theier elders and they all fail their quests. However thei energy and impetus motivate the elders to never give up and in the end of the movie all 3 new protagonists have learned from the elders and have grown in some significant and evident way (Poe more so than anyone else). Are there conviniences and Ex machinas on the scrip, ye sure but I dare you to find one script ever that doesn't. Its highly unlikedly that Ep VIII will win awards for its script, but it has a very solid one, it does exactly what it set out to do and the character arcs all lead somewhere withitm the movie. 

Ya....I'm not gonna waste my time relisting how pretty much everything that happened in this movie could have been avoided in one way or another if the characters actually acted like functioning human beings with common sense. There's gotta be like hundred posts on that already in this thread. If you don't see that....idk what to tell you man.

And as for the themes of this movie....lol....it's just another thing they couldn't make a definitive statement on (like everything else in this movie). Everything they do, they try to have it both ways. Here's Rian Johnson while writing the scrip; "Ok, big theme of the movie, self sacrifice is noble, great, and worth applauding! Ok, a few minutes later, self sacrifice is shit, we shouldn't condone it, don't kill the things you hate!" So don't tell me about how this movie teaches characters clear lessons, and everyone has great character development. 

If you enjoyed the movie, great. More power to you. I wish I could have enjoyed it too. But don't dilute yourself into thinking the movie did things that it clearly didn't.