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Forums - Politics Discussion - EPA Withdrawing from Clean Power Plan

 

Should EPA withdraw from the CPP?

Yes, because I have no gr... 19 21.35%
 
No. 70 78.65%
 
Total:89

But they're crusading against VW...what a hypocrite organisation.



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double post



KLAMarine said:

But global warming does in fact amplify their intensity, yes?

Yes but he argued we don't know the extent of it and that still remains true ... 

KLAMarine said:

Luckily, I don't believe I did. I believe I pointed to a global trend to explain local events.

You very much did so ... 

Our reliable records we have pale in comparison to the context of Earth's geological timescale. A century's worth of data or even under that can't possibly hope to explain or predict long term trends for over as much as billions or as little as millions of years ... 



fatslob-:O said:
KLAMarine said:

But global warming does in fact amplify their intensity, yes?

Yes but he argued we don't know the extent of it and that still remains true ... 

Are the two statements incompatible?

fatslob-:O said:
KLAMarine said:

Luckily, I don't believe I did. I believe I pointed to a global trend to explain local events.

You very much did so ... 

Our reliable records we have pale in comparison to the context of Earth's geological timescale. A century's worth of data or even under that can't possibly hope to explain or predict long term trends for over as much as billions or as little as millions of years ... 

Of course not but if all we have is a century's worth of data, what's wrong with using that to predict the trend in the coming century?



sc94597 said:
KLAMarine said:


Our climate is warming and in turn the ocean is too which amplifies extreme weather patterns, the sort that devastate. See Puerto Rico, Houston, and Florida recently. 

It is too early to make such claims like that. This is for the same reason that saying, "how can the world be warming, there was a really bad snowstorm each of the last three years? is poor logic. Associating local events with global trends is hard.  Just wanted to highlight that, because saying "look at hurricane [Harvey, Maria, Irma]" is not the best argument, as it is pretty unclear the extent to which warming increased their intensity and with climate change there will be regions of the world that get less precipitation -- if you focus on local events to support global trends, the people live in other local realities become hyperskeptics. 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/31/what-do-we-know-about-relationship-between-climate/

"A draft report on climate science conducted by 13 federal agencies as part of the National Climate Assessment said models showed the number of very intense storms have been rising as a result of a warmer world. But the trend has yet to rise above normal variation.

The report also said that scientists are better able to attribute weather events to climate change than they used to be, but linking individual events to climate change is more complicated. The scientists we spoke to about Hurricane Harvey expressed a similar challenge."

I’ve only lived on this planet for 40 years and I can tell you one thing....this climate is going to shit. We had the weirdest weather I can ever remember this year and everything seems to get more out of balance every year. I’m glad I’m living in a country with big solid stone houses but I swear to god I’m well aware 90% of this planet’s population doesn’t have this luxury. Not even most Americans. People need to stop being so ignorant.



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shikamaru317 said:

So what exactly do you green energy fans propose be done about employing the coal miners you want to put out of work? Since 2011 60,000 coal miners have been laid off, and there are still 77,000 more coal miners who will be laid off if coal mining is abandoned. These people have a skill set that doesn't transfer over to many other jobs. Many towns in West Virginia, Kentucky, and Pennsylvania are built exclusively around the coal mining industry, there simply aren't any other jobs for these miners to work near them. Are you willing to pay increased taxes in order to retrain these out of work coal miners? Personally I'm all for retraining them, but I have a feeling many of the people who want green energy aren't willing to pay higher taxes to retrain the employees they want to put out of work.

You said it yourself, retraining. It won't be easy but if you want to survive, you gotta pick up a new craft.  The goverment and the green energy companies have to help these people, we can just toss them to the side but it takes just one generation to break families or towns who have been in this line of work for decades. I'm not versed or read in this issue but just as we have to adapt to the worsening conditions of our planet, so do they and we should all help if needed.



"Trick shot? The trick is NOT to get shot." - Lucian

KLAMarine said:

Are the two statements incompatible?

That depends on the implication ... 

KLAMarine said:

Of course not but if all we have is a century's worth of data, what's wrong with using that to predict the trend in the coming century?

Our weather forecasts aren't even accurate when going beyond a month when we've had decades of past data to boot so how can one century's worth of data ever be enough to tell if there's a trend when Earth's climate is highly variable and erratic ? (you'd at least need 1000 years worth of data to even get a hint and geologists learned that the hard way when they discovered ice ages still persisted with CO2 concentrations that were 10x higher than it is today) 

Even if anthropogenic global warming is happening there's a limit to our fossil fuel reserves while our biosphere grows bigger and starts reabsorbing all those emissions again and starts forming sediments ... 



KLAMarine said:

"it is pretty unclear the extent to which warming increased their intensity"

But global warming does in fact amplify their intensity, yes?

"if you focus on local events to support global trends"

Luckily, I don't believe I did. I believe I pointed to a global trend to explain local events.

Sure, but if only increased it by .000001% per year, why would we care? Magnitude matters just as much as whether or not its happening, especially when we are making cost-benefit-risk assessments. 

Luckily, I don't believe I did. I believe I pointed to a global trend to explain local events.

This is still a global claim though, because storms are not going to be more extreme everywhere in the world. So using global trends to explain any particular intense storm without empirical evidence of causation does harm, because when one sees a region with calmer weather they are going to say, "What are you talking about? The weather is calmer here." Since you can't verify causation, you can't make the claim you made. 



Errorist76 said:
sc94597 said:

It is too early to make such claims like that. This is for the same reason that saying, "how can the world be warming, there was a really bad snowstorm each of the last three years? is poor logic. Associating local events with global trends is hard.  Just wanted to highlight that, because saying "look at hurricane [Harvey, Maria, Irma]" is not the best argument, as it is pretty unclear the extent to which warming increased their intensity and with climate change there will be regions of the world that get less precipitation -- if you focus on local events to support global trends, the people live in other local realities become hyperskeptics. 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/31/what-do-we-know-about-relationship-between-climate/

"A draft report on climate science conducted by 13 federal agencies as part of the National Climate Assessment said models showed the number of very intense storms have been rising as a result of a warmer world. But the trend has yet to rise above normal variation.

The report also said that scientists are better able to attribute weather events to climate change than they used to be, but linking individual events to climate change is more complicated. The scientists we spoke to about Hurricane Harvey expressed a similar challenge."

I’ve only lived on this planet for 40 years and I can tell you one thing....this climate is going to shit. We had the weirdest weather I can ever remember this year and everything seems to get more out of balance every year. I’m glad I’m living in a country with big solid stone houses but I swear to god I’m well aware 90% of this planet’s population doesn’t have this luxury. Not even most Americans. People need to stop being so ignorant.

Forty years is not long enough for an individual person to accertain global trends in climate based on their experience. Sorry, this is just as bad as the people who say, "Global warming doesn't exist because my region is getting colder over forty years." Sure, your local region might've got colder, but the GLOBE got warmer. It is important to depend on facts when we talk about climate change, not personal experience. 



SpokenTruth said:

Weather =/ cliamte.  Learn the difference.

LAWL, you just made a strawman and missed my point ... 

How is that even possible ? 

SpokenTruth said:

We're killing our bioshphere and it takes hundreds of thousands to millions of years to reabsorb what we put out.  We are way beyond equilibrium.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/12/161222095844.htm

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/08/plants-have-unexpected-response-climate-change

Fact is there's more biodiversity in warmer climates and plant life seems to prefer both the higher temperatures and higher concentration levels of CO2 ... 

@Bold That is something a climate alarmist would say. There's almost no chance of Earth running into a runaway greenhouse gas effect and even the IPCC admits to this ... (not to mention as organic life continues to absorb the CO2 in the atmosphere and as organic material continues to accumulate on top of each other in anaerobic environments, sediments will start to form and the CO2 gets trapped in these calcite rich limestones) 

Your entire post is the prime example of fearmongering ...