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Forums - Politics Discussion - Why is there no thread about Spain reverting to fascism?

Ka-pi96 said:
Barozi said:

From the dictionary:

Police. Also called police force. an organized civil force for maintaining order, preventing and detecting crime, and enforcing the laws.

That's exactly what they were doing. The referendum was illegal, thus they had to try to prevent people from voting. Were some of them too brutal here and there? Sure, but don't act like every voter is a saint. On such a huge scale like this with millions of people involved, not much happened or at least nothing out of the ordinary.
Compared to the G20 summit in Hamburg earlier this year, this was nothing.

Based on that definition they failed at their jobs then. It was because of the police that there was no order...

You obviously have something against the police, so I'm not sure if I should continue.

So just because millions of people do something illegal together ...makes it okay? No reason for the police to intervene? Completely illogical.
You know there's always (at least) two groups that clash, right? Both have their points, but in the end the police is the authorized entity to enforce the law and when the other side ignores that, there will be consequences.



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Player2 said:
Wright said:

This would be desirable as well, yeah. Achievable? Probably not. xD

It's needed because we have to deal with people indoctrinated since school (the catalonian government has control over education over there, that's why no public school in Catalonia teaches in spanish), and lies from both sides (we've been listening them for... over five years?

What you've said about school in Catalonia is one of the lies you are helping spread. And I know it because I had several teachers that taught in spanish, without any problem from neother students, parents or anyone else involved.

And if that happened in a relatively small town from Lleida, with far more people talking in catalan, imagine what happens in big cities like Barcelona where there are more people that don't speak catalan.



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SuperNova said:



One of the first scenes shows the class rearranging their tables, that had been set up in little groups (a very typical german classroom layout, were students sit in little groups of six scattered about the classroom) into a more traditional front facing row layout. For someone with my cultural backround it's pretty clear symbolism for the totalian hierarchical struckture of facism.
My boyfriend just started laughing. When I aksed him why, he said: 'I've never sat any diffrent in school.'

Dude, I'm Spanish and that's not true, I have sat in groups of 2 or 3 on the school most of my life, you are being really exagerated thinking that's a signal of fascism.

While in Germany, France, Greece and other countries the extreme right and its fascists political parties have been growing, Spain has not a single one of those political parties on its parlament, instead it has Podemos, which is basically the oppossite, so i'm not sure Spain is specially fascist compared to other European countries.



SuperNova said:

-snip-

I eh...gotta question some of the things stated here.

· Abortion in Spain is legal. It's not "practically illegal" in any way or shape, any women over 18 can freely abort in either public or private clinics during the first three months, except the fact that a 2015's re-update makes minors (i.e. anyone under 18) require the consent (and presence) of their parents in order to abort, but they can do so if they have the consent. Any women can abort after 3 months if the pregnancy was a result of rape, if the child she's carrying has any defects, or if it poses any discernible threat to the woman's life.

· I'm not sure what's that all about chairs and tables, but I mainly have to question if it has any symbolism at all. Most classes I've been have fuck all tables and chairs in rows of 1-1, and my old school used to have shared table/chairs in 2-1 rows. I do agree that education needs an urgent revamp, but I can't really get anything of what you established using The Wave as an example. Try public schools. It's jungle territory, not mind-controlling symbolism.

· The two republics, Spanish Civil War, Franco's regime and the Transition are mandatory in History classes. Second year of high-school has a mandatory "Spanish history" section that no one can avoid, and these are also added into Selectivity if you're trying to aim for any universitary degree. While high-school (once you've done Primary and Secondary, which are mandatory for every single spanish citizen) is optional, you're forced to do so if you want to access university. In other words, every single university student, whether he has finished or not, knows about all those things I've mentioned. Heck, without anything to back me up me here, I can safely say people remember more about these things than let's say, Primo de Rivera's dictatorship or Amadeo de Saboya's short-lived status as Spanish king.

· What do you mean "they'd never written an essay"? Essays are mandatory and extensively touched during Spanish classes (heck, there's even things like Sintax analysis which no one likes because it's useless as fuck, but it's also incorporated into these at times). Essays are also an integral part of Selectivity (especially if you choose something like Philosophy), because you are basically required to make an extensive essay after careful analysis of a text as part of the Spanish subject. If your boyfriend had to relearn anything at university, it's because universities prefer their own essay model rather than the one being taught at schools, but that doesn't mean there isn't an essay model at schools.

· I can honestly say "blind patriotism" is not part of any school. I'm not sure if you mean something like signing "Cara al sol" during classes, but I doubt that's being done today even in private, overly-religious schools. Maybe your boyfriend had the worst of luck when choosing his school, but absolutely nothing of this has happened in any school I know where friends have studied. Heck, there's a massive disregard of the authority at public schools.

This information is provided by someone who has been living and studying more than 18 years of his live in an island, which bears admittely some of the worst schools and universities you can find in the entirety of Spain.

EDIT: as Goodnightmoon also stated, Spain has also accomodated two new parties after the past elections; a center-right group called Ciudadanos, and a left party called Podemos, elevating the total number of main parties in Spain to four, having two (ahem with one of them) parties leaning left, and two parties leaning right, with no discernible extreme-right presence at all in the Congress (if memory serves me right, the Animalist party even got more votes than the far-right one). If for some reason we assume your comments are right and there's blind patriotism and far-right symbolism in schools, it's having the opposite effect in the people.



SuperNova said:

Damn, your comment on education is not true at all. 



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It would be demogracy if the whole of Spain got to vote.



JEMC said:
Player2 said:

It's needed because we have to deal with people indoctrinated since school (the catalonian government has control over education over there, that's why no public school in Catalonia teaches in spanish), and lies from both sides (we've been listening them for... over five years?

What you've said about school in Catalonia is one of the lies you are helping spread. And I know it because I had several teachers that taught in spanish, without any problem from neother students, parents or anyone else involved.

And if that happened in a relatively small town from Lleida, with far more people talking in catalan, imagine what happens in big cities like Barcelona where there are more people that don't speak catalan.

Well, I'm sure you studied before Esperanza Aguirre handed control over education to the Generalitat in the late 90's. You aren't so young

To make things clear, by public schools I meant it strictly. I know that "centros concertados" (is there even a word for those in English?) and full private schools teach in spanish, and that the Generalitat paid the costs to spanish kids that had no choice but to study in those if their parents couldn't afford it.



Wright said:
SuperNova said:

-snip-

I eh...gotta question some of the things stated here.

· Abortion in Spain is legal. It's not "practically illegal" in any way or shape, any women over 18 can freely abort in either public or private clinics during the first three months, except the fact that a 2015's re-update makes minors (i.e. anyone under 18) require the consent (and presence) of their parents in order to abort, but they can do so if they have the consent. Any women can abort after 3 months if the pregnancy was a result of rape, if the child she's carrying has any defects, or if it poses any discernible threat to the woman's life.

· I'm not sure what's that all about chairs and tables, but I mainly have to question if it has any symbolism at all. Most classes I've been have fuck all tables and chairs in rows of 1-1, and my old school used to have shared table/chairs in 2-1 rows. I do agree that education needs an urgent revamp, but I can't really get anything of what you established using The Wave as an example. Try public schools. It's jungle territory, not mind-controlling symbolism.

· The two republics, Spanish Civil War, Franco's regime and the Transition are mandatory in History classes. Second year of high-school has a mandatory "Spanish history" section that no one can avoid, and these are also added into Selectivity if you're trying to aim for any universitary degree. While high-school (once you've done Primary and Secondary, which are mandatory for every single spanish citizen) is optional, you're forced to do so if you want to access university. In other words, every single university student, whether he has finished or not, knows about all those things I've mentioned. Heck, without anything to back me up me here, I can safely say people remember more about these things than let's say, Primo de Rivera's dictatorship or Amadeo de Saboya's short-lived status as Spanish king.

· What do you mean "they'd never written an essay"? Essays are mandatory and extensively touched during Spanish classes (heck, there's even things like Sintax analysis which no one likes because it's useless as fuck, but it's also incorporated into these at times). Essays are also an integral part of Selectivity (especially if you choose something like Philosophy), because you are basically required to make an extensive essay after careful analysis of a text as part of the Spanish subject. If your boyfriend had to relearn anything at university, it's because universities prefer their own essay model rather than the one being taught at schools, but that doesn't mean there isn't an essay model at schools.

· I can honestly say "blind patriotism" is not part of any school. I'm not sure if you mean something like signing "Cara al sol" during classes, but I doubt that's being done today even in private, overly-religious schools. Maybe your boyfriend had the worst of luck when choosing his school, but absolutely nothing of this has happened in any school I know where friends have studied. Heck, there's a massive disregard of the authority at public schools.

This information is provided by someone who has been living and studying more than 18 years of his live in an island, which bears admittely some of the worst schools and universities you can find in the entirety of Spain.

EDIT: as Goodnightmoon also stated, Spain has also accomodated two new parties after the past elections; a center-right group called Ciudadanos, and a left party called Podemos, elevating the total number of main parties in Spain to four, having two (ahem with one of them) parties leaning left, and two parties leaning right, with no discernible extreme-right presence at all in the Congress (if memory serves me right, the Animalist party even got more votes than the far-right one). If for some reason we assume your comments are right and there's blind patriotism and far-right symbolism in schools, it's having the opposite effect in the people.

Easy explanation: His boyfirend could be from Andalusia (or a community with similar PISA results).

The abortion thing almost happened too. Remember Gallardon?



Player2 said:

Easy explanation: His boyfirend could be from Andalusia (or a community with similar PISA results).

The abortion thing almost happened too. Remember Gallardon?

I don't forget about Gallardon, but that didn't come to fruition. I don't defend all of Spain's decisions and I especially don't like the (admittely highly voted) current leading goverment, but to claim we're going deep into fascism is like making too big of a leap. From his post, I never denied the current corruption in our goverment, which is something I also highlighted on my original post in this thread.

And I dunno about PISA. Again, I'm from the Canary Islands, which ranked as low (and sometimes even lower, check Maths) as Andalusia.



So you decided to add another thread about not telling people what is happening in Spain? Ok.



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