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Forums - Politics - NYT : "Trump Jr. Was Told in Email of Russian Effort to Aid Campaign"

 

Collusion?

yes 116 50.43%
 
no 22 9.57%
 
too early to tell? 35 15.22%
 
fake news 57 24.78%
 
Total:230
ArnoldRimmer said:

My favourite part about this whole ridiculous story is this:

"The woman stated that she had information that individuals connected to Russia were funding the Democratic National Committee and supporting Mrs. Clinton."

(Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/09/us/politics/trump-russia-kushner-manafort.html)

So there are two possibilities:

1. The informations that Veselnitskaya tried to offer to the Trump team were correct.
That would mean that russians did indeed try to influence the POTUS election - but unlike what's usually claimed, they did not support Trump, but Clinton! And Trump would not have won because of, but despite russian interference.

2. The informations that Veselnitskaya tried to offer to the Trump team were bullshit.
In that case, there are again two possibilities:

2a. Veselnitskaya was acting on behalf of the Kremlin
That would mean that the Kremlin intentionally tried to provide the Trump team with false informations. If the Trump team had believed and spread that information, believing it to shed a negative light on Clinton, that could have been easily debunked as being false informations - in which case the damage would be with Trump, not Clinton.

2b. Veselnitskaya was NOT acting on behalf of the Kremlin
That would mean that there was no link to the Kremlin in this story, and the whole story is ultimately just another "big nothing burger".

Sorry, they're gonna go with 666c Trump Jr being a dirty traitor for talking with this woman.



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Aeolus451 said:
sethnintendo said:

Trump can't get impeached but Trump Jr. might have violated some laws.  He already hired a top notch lawyer so lets see how much money gets wasted in the courts over him trying to save his ass. 

Just meeting someone for possible dirt on hillary and not exchanging any information is not violation of any laws. 

This is where you are assuming.  You are taking Trump Jr word nothing was exchanged when its proven that he is a lier.  This is what kills me about people that make this defense.  You are taking his word that nothing came of this meeting after he, Krusher and pretty much everyone in Trump org has denied any dealings with any Russian operative.  You seem very quick to just take these people with all of their ties to each at their word as if they would not continue to lie until proven gultity.  Just because they say they are not who they are but show it every time they get caught, just maybe you should start to dismiss their word and go on what is proven.



Aeolus451 said:

Sorry, they're gonna go with 666c Trump Jr being a dirty traitor for talking with this woman.

So let me ask you this very important question.  Would you say if information was given by this lawyer was legit wold it be considered valuable.  Also since this is a foreign power and the information was legit, what would the Trump administration would need to offer for exchange for this information.  What do you believe the outcome of this deal, if proven that something did come from this meeting?



JRPGfan said:
Aeolus451 said:

Just meeting someone for possible dirt on hillary and not exchanging any information is not violation of any laws. 

The act of just showing up can be, if you know its a foregin agent, who supports your candidate, and wants to hurt another.

Your showing up to potentially help a foregin power, influence things, they shouldnt.

 

Donald Trump Jr, and the 2 others that showed up, could face jailtime for treason.

No, they couldn't. Maybe another crime (though I doubt it), but nothing close to treason. For one, you have to be at war with the country to consider treason charges. When two Americans gave information on nuclear bomb secrets during the Cold War to the Russians it wasn't treason. This is considerably less than that.



Owner of PS4 Pro, Xbox One, Switch, PS Vita, and 3DS

Machiavellian said:
Aeolus451 said:

Just meeting someone for possible dirt on hillary and not exchanging any information is not violation of any laws. 

This is where you are assuming.  You are taking Trump Jr word nothing was exchanged when its proven that he is a lier.  This is what kills me about people that make this defense.  You are taking his word that nothing came of this meeting after he, Krusher and pretty much everyone in Trump org has denied any dealings with any Russian operative.  You seem very quick to just take these people with all of their ties to each at their word as if they would not continue to lie until proven gultity.  Just because they say they are not who they are but show it every time they get caught, just maybe you should start to dismiss their word and go on what is proven.

Innocent until proven guilty. That's how I treat things like this. Unless he actually did something criminal and they have proof of it then I don't really care especially since I know cnn and msnbc are gonna run this for at least a month with no updates other than just recycling the same stuff.

Machiavellian said:
Aeolus451 said:

Sorry, they're gonna go with 666c Trump Jr being a dirty traitor for talking with this woman.

So let me ask you this very important question.  Would you say if information was given by this lawyer was legit wold it be considered valuable.  Also since this is a foreign power and the information was legit, what would the Trump administration would need to offer for exchange for this information.  What do you believe the outcome of this deal, if proven that something did come from this meeting?

Do you guys realize what info the lawyer supposedly had? It was info/evidence that Hillary Clinton had dealings with Russia that were criminal or politically damaging. So if they gave jr that info which the meeting was for, don't you suppose he would of used it to bring down Hillary during the election? Don't you think the trumps would have used the info some bombastic way to hurt hillary? That's what convinced me that no info was exchanged. If it was exchanged, it would have been used then depending on the info itself, it would have likely overshadowed how jr got the info. They would most likely treat him as a source or leaker depending on how the info was released to the public. 



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SpokenTruth said:
Aeolus451 said:

Just meeting someone for possible dirt on hillary and not exchanging any information is not violation of any laws. 

No, but not acknolwedging the meeting on your background check for your security clearence might be.  And this is where the problem lies.  Trump's team seems to have a serious case of forgetfulness when it comes to stating their Russian connections when applying for security clearences.  They freely admitted to all their other foreign connections....but they somehow all (a dozen people) forgot about Russia?

If it were one or two, this would have died long ago but it keeps happeneing and now this with DT Jr.  

By the way, if this were Clinton or Obama, would you defend them just as hard as you are defending Trump and associates or shouting "Lock Her Up!"

I don't believe that trump, his family, his adminstration or anyone with any connection to them has to disclose every time they talked to a russian. It's absurd to ask them to when there's no evidence along the lines of trump doing anything criminal with russian in regards to the election. 

I never jumped onto any of the birther type conspiracies or email investigation because there's no was no actual tangible proof and no real shot of going anywhere. it would be easier to go after obama on his policies and Hillary on her dishonesty/pandering and policies instead of that stuff. Entertaining conspiracies or focusing on nothing burger "scandals" really just hurts the party that entertains those things when they don't pan out after a bit.

Honestly, alot of the right hoped that something would have came from the email stuff but it should have been dropped a long time ago because it didn't pan out. Thankfully, there's wasn't many of the right believing in the birther crap, that would have damaged the party a good bit. 



I figure Trump Jr. will get hit with a fine, and not much more.

It is a bad thing to have foreign nationals get involved with digging up dirt on political candidates. It has the appearance of something really rotten that no respectable person in politcal campaign should involve themselves with.

All the same - it still feels like really large stretch to just assume some D-list entertainer is the ultimate link between the Trump campaign and Russian efforts to influence the election. Not impossible - but as we know some people will say and do anything to get into the insider circle.



I predict NX launches in 2017 - not 2016

Aeolus451 said:
Machiavellian said:

This is where you are assuming.  You are taking Trump Jr word nothing was exchanged when its proven that he is a lier.  This is what kills me about people that make this defense.  You are taking his word that nothing came of this meeting after he, Krusher and pretty much everyone in Trump org has denied any dealings with any Russian operative.  You seem very quick to just take these people with all of their ties to each at their word as if they would not continue to lie until proven gultity.  Just because they say they are not who they are but show it every time they get caught, just maybe you should start to dismiss their word and go on what is proven.

Innocent until proven guilty. That's how I treat things like this. Unless he actually did something criminal and they have proof of it then I don't really care especially since I know cnn and msnbc are gonna run this for at least a month with no updates other than just recycling the same stuff.

Machiavellian said:

So let me ask you this very important question.  Would you say if information was given by this lawyer was legit wold it be considered valuable.  Also since this is a foreign power and the information was legit, what would the Trump administration would need to offer for exchange for this information.  What do you believe the outcome of this deal, if proven that something did come from this meeting?

Do you guys realize what info the lawyer supposedly had? It was info/evidence that Hillary Clinton had dealings with Russia that were criminal or politically damaging. So if they gave jr that info which the meeting was for, don't you suppose he would of used it to bring down Hillary during the election? Don't you think the trumps would have used the info some bombastic way to hurt hillary? That's what convinced me that no info was exchanged. If it was exchanged, it would have been used then depending on the info itself, it would have likely overshadowed how jr got the info. They would most likely treat him as a source or leaker depending on how the info was released to the public. 

You continue to assume that he did not use it.  You continue to assume that they had to just come out themselves with the information.  Depending on the nature of the info and how they obtained it, do you think it would be best for them to actually come out directly with that info.  If Trump and his administration did directly come out with that info, then they would be in a world of trouble.  Also there is an investigation with a Marketing research firm that Krusher funded that actually did throw out some dirt on Clinton behind the scenes.  

On another topic it does appear that Trump Jr and even Krusher could be procecuted for breaking the Finance laws governing contribution of foreign nationals.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/11/110.20

So basically it matters not if Trump actually did receive any information but the fact he went to the meeting to receive it could be enough.  Here is the passage that I am sure he and his lawyers will be making a defense and presecutors will be looking to make a case against.

(4)Knowingly means that a person must:

(i) Have actual knowledge that the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national;

(ii) Be aware of facts that would lead a reasonable person to conclude that there is a substantial probability that the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national; or

(iii) Be aware of facts that would lead a reasonable person to inquire whether the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national, but the person failed to conduct a reasonable inquiry.



fleischr said:
I figure Trump Jr. will get hit with a fine, and not much more.

It is a bad thing to have foreign nationals get involved with digging up dirt on political candidates. It has the appearance of something really rotten that no respectable person in politcal campaign should involve themselves with.

All the same - it still feels like really large stretch to just assume some D-list entertainer is the ultimate link between the Trump campaign and Russian efforts to influence the election. Not impossible - but as we know some people will say and do anything to get into the insider circle.

The email that Trump Jr. mentions the information hes going to receive from is on behalf of russia.

Thats not a assumption. He put those emails out himself.

 

Also you are downplaying things.

The "D-list entertainer" 's father is Mr. Agalarov, a Moscow real estate tycoon thats close friends with Putin.

Two-Three steps from putin, is not a "ultimate link" ?

How does it get much closer? you expect putin himself to show up in the US and hand over files?



JRPGfan said:
fleischr said:
I figure Trump Jr. will get hit with a fine, and not much more.

It is a bad thing to have foreign nationals get involved with digging up dirt on political candidates. It has the appearance of something really rotten that no respectable person in politcal campaign should involve themselves with.

All the same - it still feels like really large stretch to just assume some D-list entertainer is the ultimate link between the Trump campaign and Russian efforts to influence the election. Not impossible - but as we know some people will say and do anything to get into the insider circle.

The email that Trump Jr. mentions the information hes going to receive from is on behalf of russia.
Thats not a assumption. He put those emails out himself.--Also you are downplaying things.
The "D-list entertainer" 's father is Mr. Agalarov, a Moscow real estate tycoon thats close friends with Putin.
Two-Three steps from putin, is not a "ultimate link" ?
How does it get much closer? you expect putin himself to show up in the US and hand over files?

If he did, it wouldn't prove anything.  They could just be pictures of kittens.  Pictures of kittens encrypted to look like DNC emails. 



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