There isnt much to be honest. I still have two more must have Xbox games on my playlist to finish(Ori and State of Decay) and I have like....I dont know how much more PS4 exclusives on my playlist. The list is far longer on PS4. LOL I eat up must have exclusives like it was the most important meal of the day. The shining star of the Xbox is games with gold free games and backwards compatibility to be quite honest. 

I think it IS the next console. They're only saying it isn't because then they can get away with selling another underpowered console without catching flack. But when you think about it, it's basically their next generation machine with full BC. The only difference is the wording.

The Playstation 3 did have a high-end GPU relative in performance to the rest of the GPU's in nVidia's Geforce 7000 product stack.
The only hindrance the PS3 GPU had was that it's ROPS were cut in half.
Otherwise the only GPU's that were faster were nVidia's dual GPU solutions such as the GX2.

But one thing to keep in mind is that just before the Playstation 3 launched... nVidia released the G80. Geforce 8800 series were monsters back in the day, it relegated the Geforce 7 series/Playstation 3 into the mid-range in terms of comparative performance when the PS3 launched.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2116/24

The Xbox 360 was a semi-custom hybrid design that bridged the x1000 and 2000 features. It's not really directly comparable to anything.

The Playstation 4 however... Had the Radeon 7950, 7950 boost, 7970, 7970 Ghz edition, 7990 that were all faster than it. Those were the high-end parts.
But it also had the Radeon 7870 and 7870 XT that was also faster than the PS4. A 7850 overclocked could also beat the PS4.

The upper mid-range/mainstream was the Radeon 7850, 7870, 7870 XT.
The mid-range was the 7750, 7770, 7790.

The 7730 and the re-purposed VLIW4/5 Terascale parts were low-end.

Now the 7850 GPU's were based on Pitcairn... Those same chips were repurposed (Identical from a hardware standpoint) in the 200 series with the Radeon R7 265.
Do you also think the Radeon 265 was also high-end despite the fact that the 270, 270x, 280, 280x, 285, 290, 290x, 295 x2 were all faster than it? It's the same GPU as the Radeon 7850 remember.

Not always. Sometimes it trickles up. Aka. AMD's small die strategy.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2556/2

I never said the industry was abandoning HBM2 for the consumer market. Don't put words in my mouth.
I said that HBM2 will be used for high-end and niche' products. That includes consumer segments as well you know.

The industry will transition towards GDDR6 away from GDDR5 and GDDR5X over time.
I still never said the industry revolved around nVidia.
Vega is AMD's high-end Fury successor. We know it will use HBM2.

And if you would like me to start providing evidence, then I must ask you to start doing the same, otherwise you have double standards.

Even Hynix has scaled back it's HBM2 ambitions due to how complex and costly it is and is still going full-steam with GDDR6.
A GPU with a 384-bit bus (likely nVidia) will be using it with a whopping 672GB/s of bandwidth. But don't take my word for it:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/11398/sk-hynix-advances-graphics-dram-gddr6-added-to-catalogue-gddr5-gets-faster

It really isn't a contradiction. You just aren't getting it. Not surprising.
GV100 itself isn't going to become cheaper and trickle and get released at the mid-range consumer level itself. It's an 800mm2+ chip on a 12nm process, nVidia would go bankrupt.

The 12nm process is actually based on TSMC's 16nm Finfet Compact.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/11337/samsung-and-tsmc-roadmaps-12-nm-8-nm-and-6-nm-added/4
https://www.kitguru.net/components/anton-shilov/globalfoundries-we-started-to-tape-out-products-using-second-gen-14nm-process-technology/
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/245880-rumor-nvidias-volta-built-tsmcs-new-12nm-process

By the time 7nm rolls around, GV100 and Volta will be old news. They will be outdated and obsolete. What will happen is that level of performance will be available in the mid-range with a completely new and different GPU and GPU architecture.

HBM2 is the same. Untill it's manufacturing is drastically altered by new process technologies, it's extremely high price, isn't going to change, it wasn't built with a low-price in mind, the TSV and Interposer erode that possibility. It was built because GDDR5 stagnated and we needed faster memory in professional and high-end markets.
But that goes away in a large part thanks to GDDR6.

And Moores Law actually doesn't have anything to do with a chips performance or bandwidth. It's all about transistor densities and manufacturing costs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law

And even then it's not actually a legitimate "law".

Compute performance isn't everything.
I expect imagry to look more refined, to take advantage of superior fidelity typically offered on PC. Something I have gotten used to... And then wish to claw my eyes out once I start using a console.

Well. When I say "Derivative" I mean that in a general architectural term.
The Xbox One is based on Graphics Core Next 1.1. Scorpio is likely based on something that could resemble Graphics Core Next 4.0.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/11250/microsofts-project-scorpio-more-hardware-details-revealed

But Graphics Core Next is actually extremely modular, you can add and take away features fairly easily.
So for example you can take a Graphics Core Next 1.0 part and increase the amount of ACE units, but leave the rest of the chip entirely alone.

Polaris/Scorpio is a few generations of that kind of process when compared to Xbox One. Scorpio's GPU is fully compatible with the Xbox One's GPU from an architectural perspective.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9886/amd-reveals-polaris-gpu-architecture/2

Even the exclusive AAA games have been fairly marginal. Especially on Xbox as far as imagry is concerned.

There is more to graphics than just performance. The Geforce 1080Ti isn't loaded up with a ton of graphics features that sets it apart from our current crop of graphics processors.

It's not next generation.

I don't expect next gen to start in 2019.
There is a chance 7nm might blow out into 2020 anyway, expecially for EUV. TSMC, Global Foundries etc' have never been known to always be on time.

Having a preference is fine, but pretending MS is not putting out any game is dumb. Especially where there are numberous titles that reviewed quite well.

Its like you're pretending games don't a exist to push a narative.

Actually, its not even about preference. They havent left me with much to work with. Like...objectively speaking. I mean...the only thing left would be Forza and I dont do simulations, only arcade racers and I think EA just covered that. I dont like Sims on either Sony or Microsoft. If I want an exotic car eventually...I think ill work hard enough to get one.

Battlefield games are an anomoly, there is no other titles that I can think of that look and run that good. However, they are not locked at 60 fps especially in large scale modes like Halo 5.

I'm not gonna argue Halo 5 looks great but overall I feel it looks pretty good. You keep whining about graphics, but I like Halo 5 because its hand down one of the best shooters on the market. I don't see other first parties making anything comprable, that's definite.

I think Halo 5 is using very demanding effects, that's apparent when you play something like Halo 4 which looks much flatter in comparison. I think Halo 5 would have benefitted from using less demanding effects while polishing other aspects like animation. I'm very curious to see what Scropio does for Halo 5.

I'm not gonna bash Halo 5 for not having 1080p because its pretty rare to see 1080p/60 fps on modern consoles.

Halo:MCC sold very well for a "colossal failure." Even MS admits that was a mess, but over time they fixed most of the issues and its the best way to experience all those Halo games. Hence, MCC is a great product that simply didn't achieve its full potential. This is a product I think will also benefit from the Scropio.

The Forza games are notable content even if you don't enjoy them. I've probably played over 100 hours of Forza this gen and they review very well.

I played Alan Wake as well, I think Quantum Break is about at par. Entertaining story, good gameplay, but a pretty linear experience. Its what I expected, its a Remedy game.

I agree that DR3 is a rough looking game, but it was also one of the most next gen experiences at launch. It genuinely felt like something 7th gen couldn't replicate albeit unpolished on X1. I really wish they would patch it for Scorpio but I doubt it will happen.

Well Forza Horizon 2 and 3 are pretty great, but whatever.

"The Playstation 4 however... Had the Radeon 7950, 7950 boost, 7970, 7970 Ghz edition, 7990 that were all faster than it. Those were the high-end parts.
But it also had the Radeon 7870 and 7870 XT that was also faster than the PS4. A 7850 overclocked could also beat the PS4."

Agreed with that, but I think the 7800 belongs to the high end range as well, the mid range is so broad that saying it's mid range doesnt fully do it justice. It's just not the highest end. It's best to describe it with game settings, according to DF PS4 versions of multiplats mostly run at high settings, with some settings at medium.


"The industry will transition towards GDDR6 away from GDDR5 and GDDR5X over time. "

But you dont know that, nothing suggests AMD will at this point, they could but right now they are slowly transitioning to HBM2. It could be the case HBM becomes cheaper and available enough to be put in more ranges of cards from next year.


"Untill it's manufacturing is drastically altered by new process technologies, it's extremely high price, isn't going to change"

That's basically what trickle down means and what I meant. GV100 was never a next gen platform for a hypothetical gaming console to be released in 2018. If GV100 performance is gonna be available in a next, cheaper architecture so will HBM, manufacturing will improve,  it'll have new process technologies. It's not going to stay expensive.


"Even the exclusive AAA games have been fairly marginal. Especially on Xbox as far as imagry is concerned."

Not me, I was blown away by the exclusives I mentioned, hell SWBF2 shown last night looked amazing. Expect HDR and higher color ranges to play a yuuuge role in next gen too. HDR is going to be the next big thing after 4K. Many say it's a more substantial upgrade than 4K.


"There is more to graphics than just performance. The Geforce 1080Ti isn't loaded up with a ton of graphics features that sets it apart from our current crop of graphics processors. "

But they will introduce s new set of features hypothetically. I'm just talking about the level of performance. Also the Kite demo and the Agnis Philosophy demos with just raw power look amazing on current tech.

"I don't expect next gen to start in 2019.
There is a chance 7nm might blow out into 2020 anyway, expecially for EUV. TSMC, Global Foundries etc' have never been known to always be on time."

I'm not so sure myself because there's still so much to come out this gen, its weird to think PS5 could be here in 2.5 years. I just hope they time it with AMD's best on 7nm architecture and not come a year just before they have a die shrink and new platform. Like Nintendo, had they waited just a little bit Switch would've had Tegra X2, a faster and more power efficient chip.

High settings with some of medium isn't high-end. Especially when games aren't all doing 1080P, 60fps.

Besides the PS4 is using such old GPU technology, even hardware like the Radeon RX 460 (Slower than the RX 560) is faster than it now. Which means the Playstation 4 is relegated to the bottom mid-range and Xbox One is low-end.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-radeon-rx-460,4707-3.html

The fact that Hynix and Samsung are ramping up GDDR6 production to take advantage of scales of economies? That nVidia potentially has a GPU in the pipeline to use it?

Doesn't make sense to use GDDR6 and ramp up production of GDDR6 if they are transitioning to the older HBM2.

I did provide evidence in a link.

So what you are actually suggesting now is not HBM1 or HBM2 at all. But HBM3 on a newer, smaller process?
HBM3 will likely not result in a large reduction in costs due to the TSV and Interposer. It could potentially even have a taller memory stack which could keep costs the same or even higher.

Certainly not enough to compete with the much cheaper GDDR6 that's for sure.

Battlefont uses some pretty interesting techniques which allows it to pull off the visuals it does. Namely photogrammetry.

I assume you mean HDR as in the one tied to your display, HDR, right? Otherwise the other HDR has actually been with us for a good 15+ years.
And I agree. HDR could be the next big thing. I am yet to see a game that fully leverages it, but I think Displays need to catch up allot first as well.

But I digress. I find Xbox One graphics to be pretty mediocre. Halo 5 had 10-15fps animations when the game was running at 60fps, which looked jarring.
Often games have a soft look due to a lower rendering resolution and inferior anti-aliasing method.
Textures are usually fairly muddy due to the lack of fillrate... And even things like geometry is pretty mediocre thanks to an average geometry unit.

It's good enough for the price I guess. Scorpio does resolve all that. Still doesn't compete with a High-end PC in any metric though.

Not in Scorpio they won't. Scorpio's feature set is baked and fully ratified.
Next Gen will bring something different.

Well. I think Nintendo wanted to go with Tegra X1 not because of timing... But because of money and risk.
Tegra X1 was old stock that nVidia would have likely wanted to shift.
And Nintendo probably didn't wish to make a massive gamble on newer more expensive hardware and have another Wii U scenario on their hands. That could have been a disaster financially.

We do need Nintendo to stick around, same with Sony and Microsoft, they all push each other forward and progress the industry as a whole.

Hynix and Samsung both already make HBM2, it is already in production with the highest end cards and the economies of scale is ramping up further with Vega. Not only do they make HBM2 they also work on improving HBM. AMD is betting heavily on the technology,  it's not gonna go away. It might not be until HBM3 is ready for it to take over completely but it is the future of memory. Both Hynix Samsung are already working on low cost HBM3 with double the density and bandwith of HBM2, reported to come out in 2019/2020 just in time for Navi. Nvidia doesnt dictate where the industry goes. At best GDDR6 might be a stop gap solution that's gonna be phased in the next 2-3 years.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/08/hbm3-details-price-bandwidth/


"So what you are actually suggesting now is not HBM1 or HBM2 at all"

No I either suggested GDDR5X or HBM2, but you only focused on HBM2 and how the technology is NEVER gonna be feasible on console level hardware.

"I assume you mean HDR as in the one tied to your display, HDR"

Yeah you assume correct, the HDR everyone talks about right now, not the old one that just seemed to increase bloom. HDR and expanded color range are gonna play a pivotal role in the next gen. In 3 years time buying a cheap HDR tv will be possible, look at 4K, it's almost impossible to buy a non-4K tv now and there are decent tv's at the $500-600 range.


"Scorpio's feature set is baked and fully ratified.
Next Gen will bring something different"

Well I'm looking forward to how MS will position the Scorpio against PS5 then, a short 3-4 cycle for Scorpio and then putting out a new console with games that are not gonna work with Scorpio is gonna piss off people.


"We do need Nintendo to stick around, same with Sony and Microsoft, they all push each other forward and progress the industry as a whole."

Agreed, they just look a little too risk averse. I think the X2 would really have been the sweet spot for the Switch, capable of providing 1080p in docked mode, and being more energy efficient undocked with longer battery life.