pack it up folks the threads over.

Way too soon for a new gen. I rather they make some bucks with the Scorpio and try to create something worth for the next gen. I can´t barelly see the difference between Ps3 games and Ps4 games. I mean, I can see it. But it does not impress me as the jump from Ps2 to PS3 did.

Fair enough, tbh, but what I'm mostly disappointed in is their current gen line-up.

I bought one in 2015, when with games such as Scalebound, Phantom Dust and Sea of Thieves it seemed like they were genuinely releasing games I wouldn't have expected from them. Their release schedule, beside being a bit barren, seems a lot more quaint now. 

If I can't trust the brand's direction why should I trust a beefed up One?

Halo 5 is great and looks fine for a large scale game locked at 60 fps. One of the best PvP games around as well.

You forgot 3 great racing games from MS. That is a genre Sony has has no answer for in about years.

Gears 4 is awesome. Great campaign, co op, and PvP. Its a total package. It rated in the mid 80s I think.

I beat Quantum Break and Ryse twice. They weren't amazing per se but still enjoyable.

I haven't played much Halo Wars 2 but its fun and its not like we have meant RTS options on consoles. So whatever, fun and unique content.

Recore has achieved a cult status. Can't be worse than The Order, I will play it eventually.

I played a lot of DR3 and I will play DR4 eventually. But that's Capcom stuff.

STAGE likes to complain about MS content but he would play anything on PlayStation it seems. I like all the consoles but I believe MS still makes the most enjoyable games.

Rare was always over rated. But... Banjo NnB is criminally under rated.

Not until the budget stuff comes out.
HBM uses less space and power, so there is a legitimate reason for them to use it besides performance.
Next gen consoles should be on 7nm or lower.

The GV100 is hardly a next gen gaming GPU (though I do want to see what people can do with the tensor core for gaming, hope for the best, expect the worst).

Hell no it doesn't.
Battlefield, heck every 60fps frostbite game is easily superior to Halo 5 in terms of visuals, Halo 5 also didn't have everything run at 60fps either.
Taken a look at Spartans in the Distance? They are sprites, operating at 10-15fps, it's extremely jarring.
Shadowing will often pop in-and-out at short distances... Same with some of the geometric details like rocks on the ground.
Texture animations on things like Jump Ramps are often 15-30fps animations as well.

Halo 5 was gross visually. It was flat and static.

Some of the texturing is fairly low resolution as well, but covered up with some clever art. The cliff/rock textures and geometry though were probably my favorite aspect with Halo 5 (And Halo 2: Anniversary) as far as image quality goes, 343i has nailed that.

The game also doesn't achieve a full 1080P resolution either which hasn't helped.

I didn't forget them, I am just not interested in sports or racing games. Haven't had an interest in them since Most Wanted on the Original Xbox. (Which I also own.)
But, people enjoy them. So it's a plus. I guess.

I also did leave out the colossal failure that was Halo: The Master Chief Collection. You don't want me to get started on that. :P

I can only take your word for it and the word of reviews as I haven't played it myself, nor do I own it.

I was hoping for something "more" from the people who brought us Alan Wake. (Which I also own.)
Ryse was everything I expected, lots of visuals, not much else. Crysis on PC in 2007 was easily my favorite game out of Crytek, it's hard to for Crytek to top that experience for me.

It's Story is fairly convoluted and boring and suffers from bad pacing, by the time you start to get into the groove of things... They ended it.
Multiplayer online population is basically dead as a doornail in Oceania.

There was only 1 map for Blitz which was the one new and interesting game mode.

The best RTS on consoles is still the first Halo Wars in my opinion, shame Microsoft didn't support that title better, the re-release is good though, but suffers from lack of population in it's multiplayer component.

I expected more. It certainly is a better title than The Order 1886.

Being an early generation game, it just hasn't aged very well. I am a graphics whore though, so you might care less about things like static hair meshes and low resolution texturing.

Lots of those kinds of people around, I think genuine criticism is good. Hating just because it's is bullshit.
It's because of criticism that forced Microsoft to ditch the Kinect to lower the price and open up more hardware power... It was thanks to criticism that the always online DRM was obliterated. It can actually benefit the platform as a whole.

I know right? Nuts and Bolts had some solid mechanics... And I have to admit... It had me hooked for awhile there. I wouldn't complain if we got a sequel to it. And Kameo as well.

HBM does use less space and power.

But it's also more complex to implement thanks to the need for interposers and it being a stacked DRAM technology.

GDDR6 should be able to have higher densities and use less power than GDDR5 anyway.

I agree. 7nm needs to be a thing. Not a "fake" 7nm marketing process either. Just like 16/14nm Finfet from TSMC/Global Foundries/Samsung etc'. Aren't true 16/14nm processes.

I disagree. It's a monolithic chip on a 12nm process (That has a 14nm FEOL or BEOL).
At 7nm, it should fall into the realm of being mid-range. Aka. Next-gen consoles.

I don't think you fully comprehend of how much of an impressive chip it is. Today. It's level of price/power/performance becomes affordable for next-gen  thanks to Moores Law.

I am not an nVidia fanboy. And I am a tech-head. And I am stupidly excited for this chip. I probably haven't been this excited about any piece of silicon in about a decade.

I was being Sarcastic with my reply. I would never recommend buying the latest console to play 10 year old games.

If you want quality Exclusives though... My bet is on the Switch long-term. The Playstation 4 will remain strong in it's position as well of course.

"It actually does matter what the low-end is doing. The low-end is what governs what goes in a console"

No it doesnt, the high end dictates is what governs what goes in a console. The high end drives technology forward.

"Consoles aren't using high-end graphics hardware"

Yes they are, they are using high end graphics hardware

"Scorpio is also not using HBM1 or HBM2 despite HBM1 being around for several years and HBM2 being widely available now"

Because HBM1 is phased out, you dont see Sony going for GDDR4 for when GDDR5 was around the corner. If AMD's product line up goes HBM2 starting with Vega, thats what consoles will have going forward. HBM also makes the most sense to use in consoles due to their form factor. You must've been one of the most vocal people saying Sony couldnt get 8 gigs of GDDR5 ram in PS4 pre-announcement.

"And the industry is not moving onto HBM2. It is moving to GDDR6."

Industry != Nvidia, what would the industry do without precious Nvidia?

"HBM is for high-end and professional markets"

I dont think you fully comprehend the tech industry, there's a thing called Moore's law. HBM will become cheaper.

"Vega isn't going to be enough for next-gen."

Yes it will, even the Scorpio's gpu would be enough for next gen, and had it exclusives it would show the improvements over the Xbone and PS4.

"Geforce 1080/Ti is not next-gen. I am actually a PC gamer. I have played around with that level of hardware performance"

Again you dont understand what is being talked about. No PC game is next gen, there is no exclusives being made for your 1080 Ti, you are playing games and ports made for lower spec hardware to run in higher settings and res. If there was a console with a 1080 Ti with an exclusive made specifically for it, it would blow the current gen away. The 5 year old HD7870 in the PS4 is nothing special now, in a off the shell pc, but in a console it pumps out games that has better graphics than any PC game. Some of those include The Order, Uncharted, Driveclub, Horizon, God of War, Beyond, Death Stranding. These are just the facts since 1. multiplats are done with the lowest hw in mind(Xbox) 2. no triple A exclusive exists that's designed for the 1080 Ti.

"The jump between the Playstation 3 and Playstation 4 or Xbox 360 to the Xbox One would have been more significant."

No the jump would be greater. I think you need to do your research. PS3 400GFLOPZZ vs PS4 1800GFLOPZZ 4.5x increase

1080TI 10600 GFLOPZ = 5.9x increase

Such console would be more than ready for da next gen.

"If Next-Gen starts in 18 months and is using Vega, then it's already going be old and outdated. I would expect a derivative of Navi at that point"

I think Navi will barely be ready by fall 2018 in consumer hardware, maybe for a fall 2019 console. This is why I think MS should've done Xbox 2 next year instead of Scorpio now. The performance gap between Scorpio and 7nm Navi PS5 is gonna be astronomical, and it's gonna be augmented by the fact that PS5 will showcase brand new next gen games. When MS starts to shift to Scorpio only development in 2 years time, the Scorpio games aren't gonna look so hot.

1) Consoles don't get high-end PC hardware. The Xbox One and Playstation 4 had Radeon 7700/7800 class hardware, which was mid-range. Not high-end.
Scorpio and Playstation 4 Pro is using Polaris-level hardware which is mid-range. Not high-end.

2) AMD, nVidia tend to build a graphics architecture and scale it to their needs and all the market segments, from low-end, to mid-range, to high-end.
AMD used to build small GPU's that were targeted for the mid-range and then use multiples of those to compete in the high-end. Best examples of this was when they were pushing their small-die strategy with the Radeon 2000, 3000, 4000 and 5000 series with great effect.

Polaris is a newer, more efficient technology than all of AMD's older GPU architectures. Guess what though? That Radeon RX 580? It's mid-range garbage. Scorpio's GPU is based on that with a beefed up memory system.

They aren't. AMD doesn't have any high-end graphics hardware on the market.

Radeon 400 series and Radeon 500 series. The fastest GPU in those lineups is mid-range junk. Not high-end.

HBM1 is still 'superior' to GDDR5/GDDR5 X in terms of bandwidth. And it was still in production at Samsung and Hynix. Go check their product spreadsheets.

I never stated that the industry revolved around nVidia. And nor am I pro-nVidia. I actually run AMD hardware, not nVidia. Or is this Ad-hominem that you are now delving into?
AMD will be transitioning to GDDR6 in the mid-range and high-end once it hits volume production and it shifts to the NCU uArch across the board.

HBM will be reserved for niche' and high-end hardware like Fury or Nano.

Correct. Moores law is a thing. But I don't think you actually fully comprehend what Moores Law actually means.
Moores law is about exponential transistor growth per square inch.

But when nVidia intends to use GDDR6 in the bulk of their GPU lineup... And nVidia commands the overwhelming majority in discreet GPU sales... Then they tend to skew scales of economy in their favour don't they? ;)

Plus, GDDR6 doesn't require Interposers.
Do you know what an Interposer is at all? It's an extra *large* chip, usually fabricated on an older process like 65nm that the stacked DRAM sits on top of, the job of the interposer is to take the denser signal routing of the stacked DRAM packages and translate it into something that can be sent with fewer traces.

That's a cost you know. And one of the big reasons why HBM cannot ever reach costings as low as traditional DRAM chips.

Plus the TSV is extremely difficult to master.

The Scorpio's GPU is a sizable increase over the Xbox One. A generational improvement it is not.

Let's put things into perspective shall we?
The Xbox 360 released in 2005 which used the Radeon x1900/R500 uArch as a base with RV600 features implemented in a hybrid design.

AMD then released the Radeon 2000 series with it's full Very Long Instruction Word 5-way design, virtualised graphics memory, Shader Model 4.0, improved texture compression via 3dc+, geometry shaders...

Then with the 5000 series we jumped to Shader Model 5, full DX11 Tessellation,  Hull Shader, Domain Shader, Compute Shader, BC6H and BC7 compression...

And then with the 6000 series AMD moved to a Very Long Instruction Word 4-way design due to the shift in the technologies game engines were using, we also got angle independent texture filtering.

And then the Radeon 7000 series burst onto the scene.

We wen't through the Radeon 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, 6000 series of GPU's and three paradigm shifts in GPU architectures before we got the Xbox One.
Scorpio's GPU is still a derivative of the same graphics architecture in the Xbox One. It's still using the same CPU.

To put things into perspective... The jump between the Original Xbox and Xbox 360 had a jump of roughly 3-4x in geometry performance.

The jump between the Xbox 360 and Xbox One however, you could be looking at a minimum of 150x. Thanks to the focus Direct X 11 brought to the tessellator/geometry units.

That mean differences like this with geometry:



Were viable for the very first time. Amazing huh?
Compute performance increased by roughly 6x. Memory capacity increased by roughly 16x, texturing increase by roughly 7x.

Does Scorpio bring all that? No. It doesn't. Not even a fraction.
Ergo. It is not next generation, not in terms of overall performance, not in terms of new graphics techniques, not in terms of efficiency gains, not in terms of increased memory capacity.

The fact that people found this generation to be a "marginal" increase over last generation is very telling don't you think? And that was a stupidly massive increase in hardware capability. Scorpio's jump is allot smaller than that.

Scorpio is a mid-range device with a low-end tablet CPU. It is not next-gen, it's very much this gen in every denominator including feature set and chip architecture which are fully complianet with the Xbox One.

I never stated that a next-gen PC game exists. So your ramble is entirely pointless.

But if you think the PC is not employing new techniques that sets it apart from the other platforms, then you are greatly mistaken.
We are the master race for a reason. Scorpio doesn't change that.

*Facepalm* I really shouldn't expect anything different from this forum.

Flops are bullshit. There. I said it. As plainly as I possibly can.

You can have a GPU with less Gflops, outperform a GPU with more. Do you need proof? I can provide it.

Navi according to AMD's roadmaps should have some working silicon in 2018. And that should extend into 2019.
Vega will also have some working silicon in 2017 and that extends into 2018 releases.

AMD also has a Next-gen uArch in 2019/2020 time frames.

I agree that Scorpio is potentially badly timed. It probably would have done better last year... Then they could have flogged that horse untill 2019/2020 for the true 7nm GV100 level chips to arrive in the mid-range.

Let's see how well they do after Scorpio's release. They might sink another billion bucks into game development or something.

I'vemadeahugemistake.gif

P.S. I own all three consoles

"Consoles don't get high-end PC hardware"

Consoles do get high-end PC hardware, the PS3 was high end as was the 360 as was the PS4. The 7800 class isnt mid end, it was high end. $300 range is high end. It's only the Xbone that was underpowered, only to account for the cost of the Kinect.


The way the industry moves forward is that tech from the high end trickles down, it doesnt go upward. It's one of the basics really.


"I never stated that the industry revolved around nVidia"

Yes you did, you said industry is moving towards GDDR6 and abandoning HBM2 for the consumer market, with no proof whatsoever, you only did that because Nvidia is rumored to go with GDDR6 with their products, why else would you say that. What we know of Vega and the rumors all point towards AMD really wanting HBM2 to be their future.


"Moores law is about exponential transistor growth per square inch."

Gotcha, the contradiction and flawed argument I was waiting for. GV100 is supposed to become cheaper and trickle down to consumer level, but HBM2 is supposed to not.

I think you really should do some research on what you claim and read twice before you post becuz it's all over the place..


"The Scorpio's GPU is a sizable increase over the Xbox One. A generational improvement it is not."

It is tho, more than 4x compute performance increase over Xbone should show a notable difference with Xbone games. There's going to be bigger worlds, more detailed environments, better character models, improved IQ, lightning etc.

How else do you expect Scorpio exclusives to look in the near future if the gpu is just a derivative of the Xbone?

"The fact that people found this generation to be a "marginal" increase over last generation is very telling don't you think? "

I think it has more to do with the fact that this gen we get less AAA games and especially the first couple years were barren. 3rd parties too were slow to move on with cross gen titles, games like Fallout 4 use 15 year old engines and look like they started off on the 360.

"I never stated that a next-gen PC game exists"

No but you tried to make a case the 1080 Ti couldn't possibly be next gen because you personally tried it and deemed it's not next gen performance. Unless you played games specificially programmed for the 1080 Ti you never can make that claim because all you played on it are ports and games made with lower spec hardware in mind.

The Kite demo which is made with the gtx 680 in mind looks great. The stuff Square Enix put out is amazing. Especially that demo requiring 4 Tixan X cards, so much power all just for a DX12 showcase. Imagine a game made for 1080 Ti.

"Then they could have flogged that horse untill 2019/2020 for the true 7nm GV100 level chips to arrive in the mid-range"

So you're expecting GV100 level performance out of a 2019 console? That's 7nm Navi, possibly the PS5, 12-15Tflopzz, it's going to be a bloodbath.