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Forums - Politics - Europe- economy, immigrants, and a potential inspiration

VGPolyglot on 25 March 2017
palou said:
barneystinson69 said:

Right. So those immigrant ghettos in parts of Western Europe don't exist? And is it not true that immigrants use the majority of welfare, have high unemployement, and are a drain in certain countries? Why do people keep insisting that Europe needs immigration? Europe was a great society for 100s of years without immigration, but now they NEED it? Merkel said it herself that multiculturalism was a failure. Also, you know the demographic consequences as well. Europeans are almost a minority in London, Brussles, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, and soon many others.

Immigration in general is most definately something that Germany needs. They had a birth rate of less then 1.5 since 1975 (currrently at 1.36. Take note that this includes immigrants, who have a much higher birthrate, in average.) That's not sustainable. 

I think that most people's anger is misplaced, to be honest. Capitalism is by definition a competitive one, so many people feel threatened when people immigrate because it means more people that they have to compete with. And instead of trying to change the economy so that it works in a cooperative instead of a competitive way, they want to eliminate competition by forcing the immigrants out.



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VGPolyglot on 25 March 2017
RolStoppable said:
VGPolyglot said:

4. They're not going extinct. Last time I checked Europeans were still there. Even if they did, it would be as a result of interracial breeding, which I don't see as a problem, because who cares what colour a person is, he's still a human.

I only want to comment on this point,  because I don't like either point of view here.

Europeans going "extinct" has no correlation with immigration. The main cause of lower birth rates is wealth. Without wealth, people are more inclined to get children, because the children are supposed to care for their parents once the parents have reached their final stage of life. But with pension fonds and the like that we have in highly developed countries, people tend to put money to the side for their final stage of life instead of investing it in raising children; nevermind that raising children is also a lot of work, so having no children also means that people have a lot more time for themselves.

Yeah. I know how many people criticize poor people for having many children, like that's the reason they're poor, when in actuality they have many children because they're poor (they need children to help them with housework, and to help them when they're old in states that don't have any services for the eldery).



barneystinson69 on 25 March 2017
VGPolyglot said:
barneystinson69 said:

1. Right, and when those areas start refusing to integrate, and the area starts becoming seperated from the whole of European society, is that Europe's fault? http://nypost.com/2016/03/22/muslim-ghettos-in-europe-are-hotbeds-for-terror/

2. You'll be surprised how much immigration costs Europe: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/swedens-ugly-immigration-problem/article26338254/

3. Of course it has, but large scale immigration is only a recent thing. You never saw millions of ME enter Europe, unless it was for conquest (balkans, Iberian).

4. So Europeans slowly going to extinction in their homeland of thousands of years is ok with you? Thats nice...

1. Maybe they're refusing to integrate because people are refusing to help them integrate? Especially when most refugees are not allowed to work, how are they supposed to integrate when they can't do that?

2. The number that is stated if $4 billion, which is less than their military expidentures (important to not: Sweden are a neutral country):

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/se-budget.htm

3. Do you realize that Christianity, the largest religion of Europe, originated in the Middle East? That alone shows the huge influence that immigration has had.

4. They're not going extinct. Last time I checked Europeans were still there. Even if they did, it would be as a result of interracial breeding, which I don't see as a problem, because who cares what colour a person is, he's still a human.

1. Refugees aren't working because they don't have the skills required. They are allowed to work, but either they choose not to because they don't want too work in a low paying job, or would rather gather government benifits.

2. 4 billion is a lot of money for a small country like Sweden. And this doesn't bring up anything good: https://www.thelocal.se/20160531/fewer-than-500-of-163000-asylum-seekers-found-jobs

3. Yes, I do realize that. But if ME immigration was so significant in the past, you would see that reflected in DNA testing today. The only place in Europe with large amounts of ME or NA blood in their people is in the Iberian, and parts of the balkans (which saw muslim invasions).

4. I could care less about skin colour in general, but Europe is a EUROPEAN homeland, and thats my biggest issue. And interracial breeding in Europe isn't all that common. People almost always marry among their own, and this applies everywhere. 



Made a bet with LipeJJ and HylianYoshi that the XB1 will reach 30 million before Wii U reaches 15 million. Loser has to get avatar picked by winner for 6 months (or if I lose, either 6 months avatar control for both Lipe and Hylian, or my patrick avatar comes back forever).

palou on 25 March 2017
barneystinson69 said:
VGPolyglot said:

1. Of course there's going to be immigrant ghettos, when you're poor you're forced into moving to a cheaper, more dangerous place.

2. If you do the research, you'll see that most immigrants who are on welfare would have already had to have worked and paid into social security:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10391238/Benefits-in-Europe-country-by-country.html

3. Migration has occurred throughout all of human history, including Europe. It's not just some new idea in the last few years. Also, you think Europe was much better centuries ago than it is now? I'm sure that you'd love living in a society rid with disease, poverty and constant war.

4. And why should we care if Europeans are a demographic minority in those cities? Native Americans are minorities in much of the Americas, are you going to complain abut that too?

1. Right, and when those areas start refusing to integrate, and the area starts becoming seperated from the whole of European society, is that Europe's fault? http://nypost.com/2016/03/22/muslim-ghettos-in-europe-are-hotbeds-for-terror/

2. You'll be surprised how much immigration costs Europe: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/swedens-ugly-immigration-problem/article26338254/

3. Of course it has, but large scale immigration is only a recent thing. You never saw millions of ME enter Europe, unless it was for conquest (balkans, Iberian).

4. So Europeans slowly going to extinction in their homeland of thousands of years is ok with you? Thats nice...

1. The level of immigrant integration most definately also depends on local hostility or readiness to interact with the newcomers.

2. There's a difference between immigration and the refugees. Refugees are people that you accept for humanitarian reasons. It's not to be expected that they are rentable.

3. Mass immigration into America/Canada was a thing. For Europe, the ex soviet union sent its fair share of strays.

4. How does the amount of immigrants in any way bring to european extinction? People don't stop having children because immigrants are around. At the 1.36 birthrate that Germany has they will need no help whatsoever to die off

 

Actually, poorer populations in western nations tend to have much higher birthrates. So if immigrants are ruining european economy, as you say, they are probably helping to keep them from going extinct



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

barneystinson69 on 25 March 2017
palou said:
barneystinson69 said:

Right. So those immigrant ghettos in parts of Western Europe don't exist? And is it not true that immigrants use the majority of welfare, have high unemployement, and are a drain in certain countries? Why do people keep insisting that Europe needs immigration? Europe was a great society for 100s of years without immigration, but now they NEED it? Merkel said it herself that multiculturalism was a failure. Also, you know the demographic consequences as well. Europeans are almost a minority in London, Brussles, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, and soon many others.

Immigration in general is most definately something that Germany needs. They had a birth rate of less then 1.5 since 1975 (currrently at 1.36. Take note that this includes immigrants, who have a much higher birthrate, in average.) That's not sustainable. 

The reason birth rates are low is because of wealth. As society becomes more automised, less people are needed in the workforce, and it'll ballence itself out. Germany doesn't need immigration, its just there to import more labour...



Made a bet with LipeJJ and HylianYoshi that the XB1 will reach 30 million before Wii U reaches 15 million. Loser has to get avatar picked by winner for 6 months (or if I lose, either 6 months avatar control for both Lipe and Hylian, or my patrick avatar comes back forever).

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barneystinson69 on 25 March 2017
palou said:
barneystinson69 said:

1. Right, and when those areas start refusing to integrate, and the area starts becoming seperated from the whole of European society, is that Europe's fault? http://nypost.com/2016/03/22/muslim-ghettos-in-europe-are-hotbeds-for-terror/

2. You'll be surprised how much immigration costs Europe: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/swedens-ugly-immigration-problem/article26338254/

3. Of course it has, but large scale immigration is only a recent thing. You never saw millions of ME enter Europe, unless it was for conquest (balkans, Iberian).

4. So Europeans slowly going to extinction in their homeland of thousands of years is ok with you? Thats nice...

1. The level of immigrant integration most definately also depends on local hostility or readiness to interact with the newcomers.

2. There's a difference between immigration and the refugees. Refugees are people that you accept for humanitarian reasons. It's not to be expected that they are rentable.

3. Mass immigration into America/Canada was a thing. For Europe, the ex soviet union sent its fair share of strays.

4. How does the amount of immigrants in any way bring to european extinction? People don't stop having children because immigrants are around. At the 1.36 birthrate that Germany has they will need no help whatsoever to die off

 

Actually, poorer populations in western nations tend to have much higher birthrates. So if immigrants are ruining european economy, as you say, they are probably helping to keep them from going extinct

Doesn't make a difference. At the end of the day, the demographic chart says it all. Import lots of immigrants, and they'll retire eventually. You still won't have enough kids, as the birth rate is below 2.1, so you need more immigration. Then the process starts to balloon...



Made a bet with LipeJJ and HylianYoshi that the XB1 will reach 30 million before Wii U reaches 15 million. Loser has to get avatar picked by winner for 6 months (or if I lose, either 6 months avatar control for both Lipe and Hylian, or my patrick avatar comes back forever).

palou on 25 March 2017
barneystinson69 said:
palou said:

Immigration in general is most definately something that Germany needs. They had a birth rate of less then 1.5 since 1975 (currrently at 1.36. Take note that this includes immigrants, who have a much higher birthrate, in average.) That's not sustainable. 

The reason birth rates are low is because of wealth. As society becomes more automised, less people are needed in the workforce, and it'll ballence itself out. Germany doesn't need immigration, its just there to import more labour...

I still don't understand how you think immigrants being there should lead to european extinction, especially if they don't interbreed, as you say. We're not in the stoneage anymore, they're not competing for ressources to survive.



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

barneystinson69 on 25 March 2017
palou said:
barneystinson69 said:

The reason birth rates are low is because of wealth. As society becomes more automised, less people are needed in the workforce, and it'll ballence itself out. Germany doesn't need immigration, its just there to import more labour...

I still don't understand how you think immigrants being there should lead to european extinction, especially if they don't interbreed, as you say. We're not in the stoneage anymore, they're not competing for ressources to survive.

I don't think they will. I was replying to Vg's comment about Europeans becoming a minority in Europe, and how he said he had no problem with that. I admit, I worded that wrong, and I want to retract that statement. 



Made a bet with LipeJJ and HylianYoshi that the XB1 will reach 30 million before Wii U reaches 15 million. Loser has to get avatar picked by winner for 6 months (or if I lose, either 6 months avatar control for both Lipe and Hylian, or my patrick avatar comes back forever).

monocle_layton on 25 March 2017
sethnintendo said:
monocle_layton said:

Minnesota wasn't a perfect state not too long ago- in the span of a few years though, the improvements have turned it into a top 10 state easily. Eco friendly, politically moderate, lack of police issues, and so many more good things (such as):

4. Support for bikers and those who don't use cars.

I'd feel bad for anyone that lived in Minn to ride a bike year round to work.  Must be pretty damn freezing in winter time.  Good luck riding a bike in the snow.

If you live in the twin cities, they do a great job of removing snow.

 

Thankfully, public transportation is also good as well



monocle_layton on 25 March 2017
barneystinson69 said:

Right. So those immigrant ghettos in parts of Western Europe don't exist? And is it not true that immigrants use the majority of welfare, have high unemployement, and are a drain in certain countries? Why do people keep insisting that Europe needs immigration? Europe was a great society for 100s of years without immigration, but now they NEED it? Merkel said it herself that multiculturalism was a failure. Also, you know the demographic consequences as well. Europeans are almost a minority in London, Brussles, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, and soon many others.

I like the part where you twist my post into something I never intended