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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Jim Sterling’s site under attack after Zelda: BotW review

archer9234 on 13 March 2017
sc94597 said:
archer9234 said:

Can you really be consistant with two different game systems? Perrhaps the reason why you wouldn't find the slow downs in Skyrim annoying. Is because your aren't taunted, like BOTW does. You have limited means of counteracting stuff, in Skyrim. But, does it stare you in the face. And cause you small pecks of annoyances? I remeber Skyrim's limitations. And I belive BOTW is more annoying. Because of the fact, it pecks at every little area. VS Skyrim. You have this limit. And you can't change nothing. Till you get a certain upgrade. But, aren't flooded with inventory screens. You have one. And everything shares it. VS BOTW. It's broken up. You are menu diging more, than in Skyrim. While in a fight. VS drop this, eqiip this to this hand, or that hand. You have to confirm bows, and swords, in two menus. What for?

You can be consistent about the justifications underlying the criticisms. I found neither system annoying. Elder Scrolls games always start with slow movement, it is part of the ambiance of the world. But I understand why some people were annoyed by movement in Skyrim (and yes they existed), especially because you couldn't change it too much. Morrowind did it much better by allowing you to (passively) upgrade movement speed as a skill so that you could actually feel the function of the upgrades. I think BOTW also does this. In the beginning you are slower and need to worry about weather constraints. By the end, you don't care because you've upgraded your stamina so that it is more expendable. The criticism I think Jim justified the best (surrounding this issue) in his review is that it is ugly being placed above the character, but in the grand scope of things that seems trivial. 

As for inventory screens, I have played the PC version of Skryim so I had the best UI possible in that game via mods. BOTW's inventory system is a major flaw, and should have been better polished. It is my one moderate gripe with the game. But even that became less of an issue later on when I became comfortable with the quick menus. I don't see how any of this is relevant to the stamina complaints, however. They are two separate things. 

Different things. Same pecking annoyance problem. The Stamina bar acts like a cocktease. VS a game limiting constraint. That's there, but you can live with it. With BOTW. i feel like: The hell? I can't go to this leddge. I need more stamina. But, I just wasted it on another upgrade. **** you game, for wasting my time. Basically, it's easier to max out the stamina bar. Over your health. Because, dying is less anoying. Than all the other stuff. Seriously. I rather die, with only having 3 hearts. VS traveling really far. Get to the towers. And find out I can't reach the top. Because I have not enough stamina. I wasted my time, getting that heart container.

Tieing the health and stamina system, to that point system. Is what is causing the overall problem. Instead of having the heart containers function has the previous games.



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Alkibiádēs on 13 March 2017
naruball said:
Alkibiádēs said:

Zelda's loading times are nowhere near a minute. Entering a shrine maybe takes 10 seconds max. There are also frequent check points, so you never lose a lot of progress. The point special is trying to make is that he let Bloodborne off the hook for its loading times,  but gives Breath of the Wild harsh criticism despite it having much faster loading times. It's obvious to anyone that he wanted to give the game a lower score than most critics from the get go. Now he can play the victim and make another episode from it. The guy's just a big drama queen. 

The cutscenes are hidden loading times, you expect Nintendo to make 120 different cutscenes for each shrine? Jezus Christ... That doesn't scream low budget, but knowing where your priorities lie. I swear, people complain about everything these days. 

Hpw about you let people like what they like and not like what they don't? No one is forcing you to like things you don't no matter how much sense it makes to them and not to you.

People really think they're the centre of the universe. If something goes against their opinion, it's wrong and it goes against common sense. In reality, far from it. I already explained why for me it's not about how long the loading times are, but whether they make sense (for me) in the game.

Feel free to have your own opinion but don't act like it's anything more than it is, i.e. your opinion.

I hope you don't genuinly believe that Bloodborne's long loading times make sense for the game. If the devs could have cut the loading times down, they'd have done so. If you need a breather you can always pauze the game for a minute. What you said makes no sense at all and Bloodborne (or any other game) would be better if it had no loading times. Not everything is subjective, some things can be approached objectively. 



"The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must" - Thoukydides

specialk on 13 March 2017
naruball said:

I'm afraid that was the opposite of my point. I said I don't particularly like Souls games and I don't mind waiting for a minute because I see it as part of the punishment for dying. Tekken 6 was my first platinum, a game of a franchise that I've loved since I first played Tekken 3 when I was around 10. Yet the loading times of Tekken 6 bother me (despite loving the game). They bother me because they make no sense in the game.

In other words, my point was that it's not always about fanboyism or (in this case) how long the waiting time is, but why I'm waiting for something in the game. I don't like difficulty in simple, fun games like Megaman. I like it in Souls games because it bonds well with the atmosphere.

It's good that you can be objective with regards to Tekken and other games. Being objecctive and critical is really difficult for a lot of people.

I do feel like the bolded feed into my point a bit.

In a game someone really likes, one persons flaw may be only a footnote (as the Bloodborne load times were for Jim) or even a positive (as load times as punishment are for you). 

If someone doesn't particularly like traveling the world looking for and solving shrines, I could easily see them blowing out things like a limited stamina bar or having to skip cutscens when entering a shrine into paragraphs of justificaiton for why they didn't like a game as much as others.

Really I think there is little rhyme or reason to what we enjoy. Any explanations are always going to be after the fact justifications in an attempt to communicate facets of brain chemistry that no one really understands.  But I'm getting a bit esoteric I suppose.

Someone above attributed Resident Evil 1's controls to bad game design. To me, the tank controls are a necessity for having a game with pre-rendered backgrounds and static camera angles. Pre rendered backgrouns resulted in a more detailed game world with more character in my opinion. Nobody is really wrong though. 



sc94597 on 13 March 2017
archer9234 said:

Different things. Same pecking annoyance problem. The Stamina bar acts like a cocktease. VS a game limiting constraint. That's there, but you can live with it. With BOTW. i feel like: The hell? I can't go to this leddge. I need more stamina. But, I just wasted it on another upgrade. **** you game, for wasting my time.

Yes, it "teases" you to make your character better by playing the game more. You are rewarded for your effort. That is important, and something many modern games have lost. They make you too capable and too powerful too early. Usually in BOTW there is another way to get onto the ledge though, without having to upgrade, but as Jim noted in his review when you have limited stamina you can't do certain things like tame highly desirable mounts, climb ledges in the rain, or fly indefinitely. 

Imagine how much would be lost in BOTW if the last one were possible. You could just fast travel to a high peak and then fly to anywhere you want. There has to be some limits in order to incentivize exploration and progression rather than make the game a checklist simulator like many other open-world titles. 



archer9234 on 13 March 2017
sc94597 said:
archer9234 said:

Different things. Same pecking annoyance problem. The Stamina bar acts like a cocktease. VS a game limiting constraint. That's there, but you can live with it. With BOTW. i feel like: The hell? I can't go to this leddge. I need more stamina. But, I just wasted it on another upgrade. **** you game, for wasting my time.

Yes, it "teases" you to make your character better by playing the game more. You are rewarded for your effort. That is important, and something many modern games have lost. They make you too capable and too powerful too early. Usually in BOTW there is another way to get onto the ledge though, without having to upgrade, but as Jim noted in his review when you have limited stamina you can't do certain things like tame highly desirable mounts, climb ledges in the rain, or fly indefinitely. 

Imagine how much would be lost in BOTW if the last one were possible. You could just fast travel to a high peak and then fly to anywhere you want. There has to be some limits in order to incentivize exploration and progression rather than make the game a checklist simulator like many other open-world titles. 

Why would a sail cloth make you fly? That makes no sense. A better one would be the magnet ability. Stand on one platform, and fly anywhere. I did edit my post:

Basically, it's easier to max out the stamina bar. Over your health. Because, dying is less anoying. Than all the other stuff. Seriously. I rather die, with only having 3 hearts. VS traveling really far. Get to the tower. And find out I can't reach the top. Because I have not enough stamina. I wasted my time, getting that heart container. Thanks to the check points.

Tieing the health and stamina system, to that point system. Is what is causing the overall problem. Instead of having the heart containers function as the previous games.



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iron_megalith on 13 March 2017

Fanboys. This is why it's hilarious that the Switch is even being white knighted so hard despite the defects, actual design issues, and functionality problems at hand.



palou on 13 March 2017
archer9234 said:
sc94597 said:

Yes, it "teases" you to make your character better by playing the game more. You are rewarded for your effort. That is important, and something many modern games have lost. They make you too capable and too powerful too early. Usually in BOTW there is another way to get onto the ledge though, without having to upgrade, but as Jim noted in his review when you have limited stamina you can't do certain things like tame highly desirable mounts, climb ledges in the rain, or fly indefinitely. 

Imagine how much would be lost in BOTW if the last one were possible. You could just fast travel to a high peak and then fly to anywhere you want. There has to be some limits in order to incentivize exploration and progression rather than make the game a checklist simulator like many other open-world titles. 

Why would a sail cloth make you fly? That makes no sense. A better one would be the magnet ability. Stand on one platform, and fly anywhere. I did edit my post:

Basically, it's easier to max out the stamina bar. Over your health. Because, dying is less anoying. Than all the other stuff. Seriously. I rather die, with only having 3 hearts. VS traveling really far. Get to the towers. And find out I can't reach the top. Because I have not enough stamina. I wasted my time, getting that heart container.

Tieing the health and stamina system, to that point system. Is what is causing the overall problem. Instead of having the heart containers function has the previous games.

It's really never NOT POSSIBLE to get somewhere because you don't have enough stamina, it usually just requires good play and creativity. (example: create yourself an updraft, look for easier roots, find a platform to jump off of, use octobaloons to create a temporary airship, etc...)



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

specialk on 13 March 2017
iron_megalith said:
Fanboys. This is why it's hilarious that the Switch is even being white knighted so hard despite the defects, actual design issues, and functionality problems at hand.

Lol. Didn't the XBox 360 have like a 50 percent failure rate at launch? 

I think, by and large, people who like the Switch just like the Switch. 

If there was another product that does what the Switch does but better, I would buy that product I guess. As it stands though, only the Switch does what the Switch does. 



archer9234 on 13 March 2017
palou said:
archer9234 said:

Why would a sail cloth make you fly? That makes no sense. A better one would be the magnet ability. Stand on one platform, and fly anywhere. I did edit my post:

Basically, it's easier to max out the stamina bar. Over your health. Because, dying is less anoying. Than all the other stuff. Seriously. I rather die, with only having 3 hearts. VS traveling really far. Get to the towers. And find out I can't reach the top. Because I have not enough stamina. I wasted my time, getting that heart container.

Tieing the health and stamina system, to that point system. Is what is causing the overall problem. Instead of having the heart containers function has the previous games.

It's really never NOT POSSIBLE to get somewhere because you don't have enough stamina, it usually just requires good play and creativity. (example: create yourself an updraft, look for easier roots, find a platform to jump off of, use octobaloons to create a temporary airship, etc...)

I just started the game. I decided to get a extra heart container, over stamina. I wanted to unlock the Hanteo tower. I couldn't get to the first ledge. The barb spikes make you take longer. Because, I ran out of stamina. By an inch. I wasted all that time, getting to the tower. My horse AI calling, screwing up. It went somewhere else. And got blocked. So I had to walk there manually. All because I picked a heart container.



naruball on 13 March 2017
Alkibiádēs said:
naruball said:

Hpw about you let people like what they like and not like what they don't? No one is forcing you to like things you don't no matter how much sense it makes to them and not to you.

People really think they're the centre of the universe. If something goes against their opinion, it's wrong and it goes against common sense. In reality, far from it. I already explained why for me it's not about how long the loading times are, but whether they make sense (for me) in the game.

Feel free to have your own opinion but don't act like it's anything more than it is, i.e. your opinion.

I hope you don't genuinly believe that Bloodborne's long loading times make sense for the game. If the devs could have cut the loading times down, they'd have done so. If you need a breather you can always pauze the game for a minute. What you said makes no sense at all and Bloodborne (or any other game) would be better if it had no loading times. Not everything is subjective, some things can be approached objectively. 

How about you stick to what I said? I never said that I need a breather. Feel free to reread what I said or don't respond to me at all.

I'm aware that the loading times are not a design decision, i.e. that's not their purpose from the creators, but in this particular game (for me), they make sense.Not because I like the game (in fact, I find the gameplay not my cup of tea), but because they fit the whole "you know that if you die these things will happen to you so be as careful as you possibly can". Loading times give me one more reason to try not to die and be on the edge of my seat while playing.

No surprise at the bolded.

"Bloodborne (or any other game) would be better if it had no loading times. Not everything is subjective, some things can be approached objectively".
Nope. Feel free to speak for yourself (and many, if not most, I'm sure will feel the same way, I don't deny this). But for me the game is better because of them for the reason I mentioned. "Objective" and "subjective" don't work the way you think. Save points are not objectively good. Sure most people probably prefer them, so they are subjectively good. But not all do. It is debatable whether they are a good thing or not.