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Forums - Politics - FBI Released Proof of Russian DNC Hacking - US expels 35 Russian diplomats & Sanctioned Two Compounds

Soundwave said:
Rab said:

Im assuming Russia is responding in kind, Russia and US can rationalise why they do what they do, but they both incite the other, no good guys here

There are no good guys. There is only power and less power. Unfortunately that's how the world works when it comes to this stuff. The best one can hope for is who ever is at the top of the heap of that power structure isn't too much of an asshole. 

The US, Russia, or China are really the only three legitimate players that can be "on top" so to speak. I don't see the other two options as being more desirable. 

Fair enough, I’m Australian so my natural inclination is towards the US, but the US has done a lot of bad in the World, so I find it hard to reconcile with any propaganda that only highlights China's and Russia's ills

I guess for a most of us balanced fact based reporting would be nice for a change  



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Rab said:
Soundwave said:

There are no good guys. There is only power and less power. Unfortunately that's how the world works when it comes to this stuff. The best one can hope for is who ever is at the top of the heap of that power structure isn't too much of an asshole. 

The US, Russia, or China are really the only three legitimate players that can be "on top" so to speak. I don't see the other two options as being more desirable. 

Fair enough, I’m Australian so my natural inclination is towards the US, but the US has done a lot of bad in the World, so I find it hard to reconcile with any propaganda that only highlights China's and Russia's ills

I guess for a most of us balanced fact based reporting would be nice for a change  

I think what is different and extraordinary about this situation is generally speaking the "major players" (of which there are usually only 2-4 at a time) don't ever dare to interfere *directly* in each other's political process. 

That's really dicey, like I don't think the US is messing with China's elections. Yes, big, powerful countries bully little smaller countries for their self interest, yes politicians who are greedy can be bought ... none of that is new. But a major power nakedly interfering into the election process of another major power ... that is a game changer. 

This is in a way an extremely dangerous escalation. 



Soundwave said:
Rab said:

Fair enough, I’m Australian so my natural inclination is towards the US, but the US has done a lot of bad in the World, so I find it hard to reconcile with any propaganda that only highlights China's and Russia's ills

I guess for a most of us balanced fact based reporting would be nice for a change  

I think what is different and extraordinary about this situation is generally speaking the "major players" (of which there are usually only 2-4 at a time) don't ever directly dare to interfere *directly* in each other's political process. 

That's really dicey, like I don't think the US is messing with China's elections. Yes, big, powerful countries bully little smaller countries for their self interest, yes politicians who are greedy can be bought ... none of that is new. But a major power nakedly interfering into the election process of another major power ... that is a game changer. 

This is in a way an extremely dangerous escalation. 

I see your point, but it's really the accumulation of many events leading to this point, in almost all human conflicts small slights lead onto bigger ones, nations save face by upping the anti, this can lead to a point of no return that leads to war

My feeling is that to prevent this from happening the media has a huge responsibility in not picking sides by laying out the unbiased facts, if the media demonizes any side long enough we may never come back from the brink, we can create our own enemies by treating them like enemies, we now have various internet sources that can help with balance, but this may not be enough

 

I found these two counter propaganda pieces (which could also be seen as propaganda depending on what you want to hear)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoL_Vu5Oqy0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zj7yzpeXWEw



This amuses me to no end. Trump will change the CIA. He'll probably fill it with Putin recommended former KGB agents.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/04/trump-plans-to-revamp-top-us-intelligence-agency-restructure-cia.html

I figured this would happen. The CIA won't play ball with Trump so he will hurt them until they tell him what he wants to hear which is that Russia did nothing to the US. And all the while Bannon laughs.



Soundwave said:
DrDoomz said:

The DNC is the one using racial tensions most effectively (tho the RNC is not guilt free either). Not Russia. The UK separated from Europe on its own. You have proof of relevant Russian influence? They invaded Crimea (w/c is one reason I dislike Putin, a lot) w/c is perhaps the only thing that Russia did even remotely close to what the book is saying. And I'm thinking the US has as much interest in making the EU its puppet as Russia, so that's a non-point.

Put down the hat, buddy. And don't strawman what I said. I'm not saying Russia is your friend. I'm saying that it is silly to think anyone is, and we should employ healthy suspicion/skepticism with everyone's intentions but let's not go overboard villifying one group just because they wanted to getTrump elected (btw, my wife voted HRC and I strongly supported her even tho I couldn't vote as I am not a citizen yet).

You are welcome to be dubious. But best be dubious with everyone if you think that interests that go against the US = reason for doubt. Don't use double standards.

You also shouldn't confuse the Scarecrow with the Joker. One is far more dangerous. 

Countries typically try to get in good with US politicans for gain on a domestic/local scale ie: Saudi Arabia and Israel. Saudi Arabia has a population smaller than Canada, their geopolitical ambitions in the broader sense are realtively small potatoes. They basically want a nice price for oil and want to pay off politicans on both sides that are favorable to that. 

Russia will always be a big player globally, for a number of reasons, their size, their history, the number of global regions they border, etc. 

There is only one country as far as I can tell that is actively trying to sabotage/influence US elections and have a global agenda. That makes one different from the others. Very different. You can try and hand wave that away but that doesn't change the reality of it. 

As shouldn't you. I find the Saudis much worse than Russia tbh. Thus I see your joker/scarecrow analogy quite the opposite as you do. There is something about religion that brings the worst in people. The only thing Russia has over SA is that Russia is much bigger/more powerful. So you might see them as a more viable short term threat. I also see that their idealogical endgame is much much worse for the world (Sharia Law) than what Russia has in store. They just don't have the power. At least not yet.

Hell, if you wanna talk about dangerous required reading that hint at world domination, check theirs out.

I don't hand wave anything, actually, my point is that you are actually the one doing the hand waving. There are plenty of threats out there. Why focus on one? Maybe you're more worried because Russia may become a viable threat to American dominance? Well, I don't see complete dominance as a good thing. Having someone in close second nipping at its heels can keep America in check, and that is a good thing IMO.

Personally, I know that there is little I can do to affect the geopolitics of the world and I find worrying snd fearmongering to be a waste of time.



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DrDoomz said:
Soundwave said:

You also shouldn't confuse the Scarecrow with the Joker. One is far more dangerous. 

Countries typically try to get in good with US politicans for gain on a domestic/local scale ie: Saudi Arabia and Israel. Saudi Arabia has a population smaller than Canada, their geopolitical ambitions in the broader sense are realtively small potatoes. They basically want a nice price for oil and want to pay off politicans on both sides that are favorable to that. 

Russia will always be a big player globally, for a number of reasons, their size, their history, the number of global regions they border, etc. 

There is only one country as far as I can tell that is actively trying to sabotage/influence US elections and have a global agenda. That makes one different from the others. Very different. You can try and hand wave that away but that doesn't change the reality of it. 

As shouldn't you. I find the Saudis much worse than Russia tbh. Thus I see your joker/scarecrow analogy quite the opposite as you do. There is something about religion that brings the worst in people. The only thing Russia has over SA is that Russia is much bigger/more powerful. So you might see them as a more viable short term threat. I also see that their idealogical endgame is much much worse for the world (Sharia Law) than what Russia has in store. They just don't have the power. At least not yet.

Hell, if you wanna talk about dangerous required reading that hint at world domination, check theirs out.

I don't hand wave anything, actually, my point is that you are actually the one doing the hand waving. There are plenty of threats out there. Why focus on one? Maybe you're more worried because Russia may become a viable threat to American dominance? Well, I don't see complete dominance as a good thing. Having someone in close second nipping at its heels can keep America in check, and that is a good thing IMO.

Personally, I know that there is little I can do to affect the geopolitics of the world and I find worrying snd fearmongering to be a waste of time.

I think SA would like to have Sharia law in their neck of the woods, not even so much because I think the Saudi rulers even believe any of that shit, it's just a good way to keep the religious nutters in check. The Saudi rich wigs, they're partying it up in nightclubs and driving Lambos, they don't give a poop about Sharia. 

There's no realistic way anyone with a lick of common sense could think that Sharia could become some global thing ... I mean you can't even play music ... like lol, forget ideological warfare, that would just get laughed out of the majority of the world, I'd bet even a majority of Muslims deep down think it's a load of bollocks. 

I actually don't think having two forces is beneficial. The Cold War was far more dangerous than the worst threats we face today, a bunch of cave dwellers with a standing army smaller than the nation of Ethophia driving around in used Toyota trucks with no heavy infantry, like 5 tanks, no air force, no anti-air weapons, is laughable compared to things like the Cuban Missle Crisis where the world literally probably came within 30-40 minutes of a cataclysmic war that probably would mean that none of us who are typing on this forum would even probably be alive, because the course of human history would be so dramatically altered that none of our parents likely meet in the same way (and many of them probably would be dead in the ensuing conflicts). 

Like the US or not, but the 90s and even the 2000s IMO were a lot safer. Having two equal superpowers jockeying for position inevitably is going to lead to a war that's going to leave hundreds of millions dead (or one of two has to collapse upon itself). We're just too stupid as a species to avoid it. Maybe in 200-300 years we'll grow out of it. 



Soundwave said:
Rab said:

Fair enough, I’m Australian so my natural inclination is towards the US, but the US has done a lot of bad in the World, so I find it hard to reconcile with any propaganda that only highlights China's and Russia's ills

I guess for a most of us balanced fact based reporting would be nice for a change  

I think what is different and extraordinary about this situation is generally speaking the "major players" (of which there are usually only 2-4 at a time) don't ever dare to interfere *directly* in each other's political process. 

That's really dicey, like I don't think the US is messing with China's elections. Yes, big, powerful countries bully little smaller countries for their self interest, yes politicians who are greedy can be bought ... none of that is new. But a major power nakedly interfering into the election process of another major power ... that is a game changer. 

This is in a way an extremely dangerous escalation. 

In 1996 USA directly were involved in President's election in Russia, resulting in second term Yeltsin election. 

Yes, Russia was much weaker then. Maybe all this mess about Russia interfering into USA elections (which I still find no proofs and don't believe its real) just a sign that USA getting much weaker then it was before?



Sharu said:
Soundwave said:

I think what is different and extraordinary about this situation is generally speaking the "major players" (of which there are usually only 2-4 at a time) don't ever dare to interfere *directly* in each other's political process. 

That's really dicey, like I don't think the US is messing with China's elections. Yes, big, powerful countries bully little smaller countries for their self interest, yes politicians who are greedy can be bought ... none of that is new. But a major power nakedly interfering into the election process of another major power ... that is a game changer. 

This is in a way an extremely dangerous escalation. 

In 1996 USA directly were involved in President's election in Russia, resulting in second term Yeltsin election. 

Yes, Russia was much weaker then. Maybe all this mess about Russia interfering into USA elections (which I still find no proofs and don't believe its real) just a sign that USA getting much weaker then it was before?

Or Putin is a lot smarter than anyone the US has tried to face off with in a long while. He is a KGB man first and foremost, his background is different from a traditional politican. 



Soundwave said:
Sharu said:

In 1996 USA directly were involved in President's election in Russia, resulting in second term Yeltsin election. 

Yes, Russia was much weaker then. Maybe all this mess about Russia interfering into USA elections (which I still find no proofs and don't believe its real) just a sign that USA getting much weaker then it was before?

Or Putin is a lot smarter than anyone the US has tried to face off with in a long while. He is a KGB man first and foremost, his background is different from a traditional politican. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush#Director_of_Central_Intelligence_.281976.E2.80.9377.29
So Bush Sr wasn't a traditional politician too? )

I honestly don't think its so much a Putin's doings. I think USA kills itself. As any empire do.



Sharu said:
Soundwave said:

Or Putin is a lot smarter than anyone the US has tried to face off with in a long while. He is a KGB man first and foremost, his background is different from a traditional politican. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush#Director_of_Central_Intelligence_.281976.E2.80.9377.29
So Bush Sr wasn't a traditional politician too? )

I honestly don't think its so much a Putin's doings. I think USA kills itself. As any empire do.

The Bushes honestly never struck me as being particularily intelligent. I think they got to where they were by using their connections rather than any specific merit or ability.