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Forums - General Discussion - Truck driven into German Christmas market in deliberate attack - 12 dead

numberwang said:
So turns out he was four years in jail in Italy for burning down a school and three times arrested in Germany and just let go every time.

Of course no deportation, something that should have happened years ago. If their home countries "reject" to take back their own citizens then put pressure on them or sweeten the pot by giving them money for the transactions.

So basically german law enforcement is disfunctional? Crap like this should enrage people, they pay taxes to get run over by bus.



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ArnoldRimmer said:
Peh said:

Peh, I'm still wondering what exactly you wanted me to suggest a solution for. Honestly, I would love to discuss possible solutions, because in the past I already tried to start discussions on possible solutions, but it never worked. When it gets to the topic of the "refugee crisis", I too got the impression that very few people seem to be able to think of actual possible solutions, and that most people instead prefer to place blame on whatever "Feindbild" they personally have, be it left-wingers/right-wingers/Gutmenschen/Nazis/migrants/AfD-voters/asylum seekers/Pegida/muslims/whatever. I totally agree with you that it would make more sense to discuss some strategies/possible solutions instead.

I really don't know what kind of point you are trying to make at first, so just let me state this one thing:

Look, my issue with people (not only on this board) is that they are really quick to judge of knowing who the culprit in all of this is.  It's the best times to go against muslims, immigrants, refugees and Angela Merkel (I did not vote for her, but I do appreciate what she is doing). It's not that those people, except for a few of them, are generally against refugees and immigrants, but because they are coming from a muslim country, they are all bad. The difference in culture is huge, and this leads to issues. I am not denying any of these issues like rapist, aussaults, and whatever. So what they do is focus the entirety of refugees coming from these kind of places to those issues they've experienced in the past. So, what's wrong with that, would anyone ask? People have the right to feel safe and because of those experiences with these kind of people in the past, the probability is really high that it will increase in the future if more people will get in. I fully understand that argument.

The other issue are what kind of people are refugees and are those really running away from regions occopied by war or as you said are "Wirtschaftsflüchtlinge". And here is one big issue at play .You see, you can't tell without verifying their documents. You got women with children and a lot of males between 20 and 35? I did not checked any statistics so I am just writing without prove.  So, how do you tackle this issue? Some people have thrown their ID away or lost them when leaving home, so we have to cooporate with different countries, which seems difficult like the state Syria is in to identify the people. The recent attack in Berlin is just prove that those countries where the people are running away from don't even bother with taking them back. Look at Tunis for not providing the necessary paper to deport that Anis A. guy.  Some people have also fake ID's. You can't deport them without knowing where they are from. Those are processes which take time. And the worst thing is, they need to be taken care of with food and water and shelter during that time. You have nearly a million of refugees staying infront of your doors, not "knowing" where to go. What are your options?

To this, like you also mentioned, are the promises they got like a free house and money and stuff. We are a rich country, right? They've sold all the belongings to pay assholes for the risky trip to europe in the hope of a better life or surviving in the first place. It's a fucked up situation. But it does not end there.

When you got people ready to deport, it takes several months to do so, because like I mentioned above, certain countries do not want them back or our goverment does not have the resources in certain parts in our country. Especially if we are talking about criminals. Why should they bother with them? They would cause harm in their origin country, so it's better to keep them away. And that's why Tunis fucked up with that kind of approach. I do not know if something will be done against Tunis for delaying the process of providing the papers, but they could provide them in an instant after the damage was done. If it goes for deporting people who cause harm or do not want to integrate in our society, then I am someone who says to throw them out as fast as possible as they can. Even faster would be better.

But those people who need help will get them.

I am not even going into the topic of supporting rebels and ISIS with weapons and who fucked who, because I would never finish. It's a part that also plays big in this whole refugee crisis, but I am not focusing on that right now.

Look, the whole situation is just bad and the end is still not in sight. Turkey takes care of most of the refugees right now, so the numbers decreased drastically in Europe. But closing the doors for people who "need" help is never the right approach. You don't know the story of the people just by looking at them.

We did understimate the amount of people fleeing to europe and did not have the resources to take care of them. I live in Berlin and saw new places being made for refugees. Yet, I did not had any issues with them in the past nor now, which doesn't mean that other also people don't. No one is perfect, but making the issue more difficult than it is by always blaming them in everything and burning their camps down will not solve anything.



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m0ney said:
numberwang said:
So turns out he was four years in jail in Italy for burning down a school and three times arrested in Germany and just let go every time.

Of course no deportation, something that should have happened years ago. If their home countries "reject" to take back their own citizens then put pressure on them or sweeten the pot by giving them money for the transactions.

So basically german law enforcement is disfunctional? Crap like this should enrage people, they pay taxes to get run over by bus.

Appearently of law restrictions we couldn't do anything about it.

They knew that he wanted to volunteer as a suicide bomber, but this wasn't enough to arrest him. I do not know the exact laws on this issue. But this sounds really bothersome at this point.



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Peh said:

I really don't know what kind of point you are trying to make at first, so just let me state this one thing:

[...]

Peh, I agree to most, if not everything you wrote in that posting, so I won't comment much on the rest of your posting.

I don't quite understand why you think that I wanted to make some point in my own last posting. So maybe a little context instead: In one of your earlier postings, you wrote something that I interpreted as you being interested in discussing possible solutions. But when you criticized that I, too, didn't provide any possible solution, I felt that this was a somewhat unjust criticism, because I'm actually very interested in discussing possible solutions. I've already got a few on my mind - none of them will make the problems completely go away of course, but I believe they would all at least improve things to a certain degree.

The reason I didn't mention them yet is because up to that point, I saw nobody asking for possible solutions, and I didn't want to explain my ideas of possible solutions without being asked for it. Because like your posting, it can take quite a bit of writing and time to properly explain them, and I didn't want to spend that time if nobody's reading it anyway. I did explain them in online discussions before, and my experience was rather disappointing, because nobody even commented on them, provided their own ideas for possible solutions when asked for that, so in retrospect, trying to discuss possible solutions turned out to be a waste of time for me so far.



Ruler said:
palou said:

Saying that a politician is responsible for individual death cases is ridiculous. Only statistics can reveal truth when dealing with a sample of 80 000 000 people. All decisions that someone in that position takes will lead to some deaths; it's their job to evaluate where more is to gain and what needs to be sacrificed. During Merkel's reign, overall, the number of violent deaths has gone down, statistically. While this most definately cannot all be attributed to her, for the very least, it's enough to make any accusations of murder unfounded.

yeah she is, not even the CSU wanted to let the refugees in, she made this decision all by her self above the party

That's not the point. Let's say a politician supports a largescale integration of solar energy in the country. Solar pannels use components (rare earths) which are mostly extracted in extremely poor countries, with corrupt countries (think: Democratic Republic of Congo). As is often the case when riches appear, the increased demand for these rare earths causes a plague of gang violence in the country. Children get kidnapped, and forced to work in mines, etc... (and yes, that does happen sometimes.) Is it reasonable to say that the politician is responsible for getting these children getting killed/enslaved? No; as the alternatives would have simply caused other deaths; thousands of migrant workers in the UAE if they go for oil, etc...

 

A politician makes a choice, and simply in how many peopl these choices affect, it will likely lead to the death of specific individuals, sacrificed in the place of other individuals that would have died in another scenario, for another decision. No matter what you do, some shitty things will happen to some people. You can't prevent that with this much responsibility. This is not preventable. A politician is a murderer if he makes choices which, very obviously, lead to much more death than it prevents. I would claim that it is for the very least highly ambiguous if letting in all these people has brought more or less death - I would lean towards the latter. If only ten percent of the refugees are from an endangered Syrian region, and only ten percent of those would have been killed in the civil war (extremely bloody, I might note 500 000 people killed to date)- , that's still 10 000 people, far far more than anything that has happened due to their arrival.



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Soundwave said:
Baryonyx said:

 

If every Nation held a grudge and decided to be a asshole over these grudges today and they all screamed Racism, discrimination for everything that has ties to their ''Hurtful past''  we all would have slaughtered each-other, to keep such grudge alive that they even scream racism over Paki is only proof that these guys will never, ever forget the past.. 

You really feel as if you can't function in life without using terms like "Paki", "Jap", "Nigger", "Chinaman" for people of specific ethnicities? You feel like you are the one being discriminated against? Like seriously? How difficult is it to just be respectful of people? I'm sorry if it pains you so, but yeah, not being an asshole and using terms like the above is kind part of being in modern society and being an overall decent person. 

And honestly this whole thing has gone sideways as the "Pakistani" guy (OH MY GAWD, it was SO DIFFICULT to type that out for me!) turns out to be an innocent victim here and gets shit on in the process, lol.

 

Here comes the shaming...  we went from having a discussion to you insinuating things about me, which is quite sociopathic.
I fail to see how Paki, Now Jap and Chinaman to be racist in the bigger picture. 
I advice you to research what real percecution and racism is, it's horrible and it's a insult to real victims of percecution that we bitch and moan over petty shit like Paki=Shortened word for Pakistani, Jap is a shortened word for Japanese and Chinaman is just silly but iit sounds more like bad grammar. 

Real percecution is so bad, you have never seen it in real life... Your drama-seeking is even worse then whatever you are policing over.. What would real victims of percecution think of you when the word Paki is worth more then you caring about them? You know that millions of people are being chased down and butchered right now as we speak and we never sees it on the news, we barely get to know of this crime, so i would change priority if i were you, there are worse demons to shame then me.



 

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