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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Uncharted director criticizes triple-a development, says it can 'destroy people'

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potato_hamster said:
SvennoJ said:

I'd love to see gamer's reactions to a developer strike. PD get criticised all the time for being slow to deliver. I have no idea how the crunch situation is there, yet dare to take more than 2 years to make another release and gamers already start complaining.

But true, the film industry has learned to time manage projects, why can't game development studios learn. I've been there too, and with a group of passionate people it's always, let's try to get this in too, let's do this a bit different, etc, until it's too late and the list of issues that still need to be fixed has grown out of hand. Someone needs to step in and say cut, stick to the original script, don't promiss anything else, good enough.

Well unlike the film industry, not every problem is solvable with time and money. Sometimes a game feature is too ambititious and too innovative, and there's just no way to make it work within the hardware constraints if they can make it work at all. Sometimes a gameplay mechanic that the game was based around is plain isn't fun no matter how much is tweaked. There are unsolvable problems where the only real solution is to not do them, and to fundamentally replace them with something else that may or may not solve the problem as well. Sometimes it's a very cuttable feature like an extra game mode or an optional setting, or weapon. Sometimes its super critical and then you're fucked, and your whole project is fucked, and there is no saving it.

The only time the film industry really faces such similar problems like that is when actors die, and even then they can get around it most of the time, especially with CGI - even terrible CGI is a solution no matter how bad it is.. There's no "CGI bandaid" that can fix, say, a climbing pathfinding mechanic that doesn't actually bring the player where they intend on going 80% of the time because of a fundamental flaw in its design. You can't "good enough" that without your game still looking like a buggy, unpolished piece of shit.

There's only so much planning you can do before a project quite literally

True. The last guardian still made it though, but that's the exception, 99.9% of developers don't have that luxury. Everquest Next simply got cancelled for example. The film industry has those problems too yet they're better at predicting what can and can't be done. Rendezvous with Rama movie was waiting for tech to advance far enough (since 2003), although last news was problems with the script.

Don't developers make mock ups anymore of gameplay before production? Just like animated story boards for movies, I would think games can benefit from sketch like gameplay testing? Unforseen things always happen, plan for it to be ready well in advance to have a buffer. It seems game development nowadays is relying on the day 1 patch to keep going right up until release date.



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SvennoJ said:

Don't underestimate the work that goes into making a big movie, which also involves a lot of programming nowadays to get the cgi done. At least with games you don't have to deal with the weather. For example filming of The revenant had to be completed in Argentina due to lack of snow in Canada. The difference is, movies aren't shown 2 years in advance as the next big thing promising all locations and what not beforehand.

Hardware limitations are specific to games true, yet those are known constants. The push for ever better graphics has become a liability. Adding an unplanned multiplayer mode, move control scheme, ps4 pro enhancements, psvr additions, is it really worth the crunch? Adding things late in production always causes headaches. It turned out great with Goldeneye, yet it was still irresponsible and set a precedent for bad development style.

That's a big difference between movies and games. With movies the creative phase comes first, script, storyboarding, then executing. With games it's all going through eachother. Uncharted 3 started as a bunch of set pieces with the script tying them together pretty much coming last. No wonder time management is a big mess in games development. Ofcourse you can still run into problems with a strong script and vision as TLG simply could not be executed. Best is to stop showing off games way before they are ready and either cut or delay.

I know all about the work that goes into a movie I worked in media for 7 years and personally know people who are part of film crews and I'll say yes it is worth developers adding new elements to a game because as Goldeneye showed these vastly improved the game and pushed the industry so like it or not this freedom has to remain, it's no different to improvized moments in scenes that are better than what was intended in the script.

It's not just graphics developers try to improve they push scale, A.i, interaction etc... All of this is neccessary as efficient use of hardware is a key experience for future development as well as creating better games.



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Last edited by OttoniBastos - on 03 July 2018

Do game programmers/artists etc get paid a salary? Or is it based on hours worked with overtime rate etc??



Guitarguy said:
Do game programmers/artists etc get paid a salary? Or is it based on hours worked with overtime rate etc??

It's different for each person and company.



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Wyrdness said:
Guitarguy said:
Do game programmers/artists etc get paid a salary? Or is it based on hours worked with overtime rate etc??

It's different for each person and company.

I see. If it was a fixed salary and less than MEGA DOLLARS and around 70+ hours a week I'd be like CYA FUCKEN LATER!!!



There have been tons of studies over the years showing that productivity is higher at 40 hours a week, than it is at 60. Why? Because people get burned out. Of course, suits don't understand this, and they fail to realize that someone working 60 hours a week only gets as much work done as someone working 50 hours a week. Once you factor in overtime, and loss in productivity you realize that these companies are throwing money out the window. Then, let's not even get into what a high turnover rate does to a company.



SvennoJ said:
potato_hamster said:

Well unlike the film industry, not every problem is solvable with time and money. Sometimes a game feature is too ambititious and too innovative, and there's just no way to make it work within the hardware constraints if they can make it work at all. Sometimes a gameplay mechanic that the game was based around is plain isn't fun no matter how much is tweaked. There are unsolvable problems where the only real solution is to not do them, and to fundamentally replace them with something else that may or may not solve the problem as well. Sometimes it's a very cuttable feature like an extra game mode or an optional setting, or weapon. Sometimes its super critical and then you're fucked, and your whole project is fucked, and there is no saving it.

The only time the film industry really faces such similar problems like that is when actors die, and even then they can get around it most of the time, especially with CGI - even terrible CGI is a solution no matter how bad it is.. There's no "CGI bandaid" that can fix, say, a climbing pathfinding mechanic that doesn't actually bring the player where they intend on going 80% of the time because of a fundamental flaw in its design. You can't "good enough" that without your game still looking like a buggy, unpolished piece of shit.

There's only so much planning you can do before a project quite literally

True. The last guardian still made it though, but that's the exception, 99.9% of developers don't have that luxury. Everquest Next simply got cancelled for example. The film industry has those problems too yet they're better at predicting what can and can't be done. Rendezvous with Rama movie was waiting for tech to advance far enough (since 2003), although last news was problems with the script.

Don't developers make mock ups anymore of gameplay before production? Just like animated story boards for movies, I would think games can benefit from sketch like gameplay testing? Unforseen things always happen, plan for it to be ready well in advance to have a buffer. It seems game development nowadays is relying on the day 1 patch to keep going right up until release date.

Yes they do. The do do concept work called a "vertical slice". But that reallt depends on the game. Some games require months, if not years of work to get a point before you'll truly know whether a concept will work or not, or whether or not a gameplay feature is actually fun. Sometimes the best ideas on paper simply aren't fun to play. You can't really plan for "having to completely redesign a critical gameplay feature because it isn't any fun".



Wyrdness said:
Guitarguy said:
Do game programmers/artists etc get paid a salary? Or is it based on hours worked with overtime rate etc??

It's different for each person and company.

Very true. However based on my experience and the people I know (about 12-15 different studios from EA Canada to Ubisoft, to Blizzard, to Warner Brothers, to SCE Liverpool among others), it is almost always a base salary and overtime that is typically paid in time off post-release if at all. My current company has that structure, and only starts paying out overtime monitarily if you have over 2 months of overtime hours banked and you're so critical to the next project, they cannot afford to have you off longer. Even then, they decide when you take your overtime time off.  Someone literally came by my desk a few month ago, and said "starting tomorrow you have the next 3 weeks off".  Sometimes there's flexibility if you had an event coming up that you'd be taking time off for anyways, like my honeymoon was an overtime vacation.

The average employment rate at my current studio is less than 2 years. People get a party thrown for them if they're there over 10 years.



Acevil said:
The_BlackHeart__ said:
The next time you want to rage for the delay of a game, remember: Developers are people too.

Wouldn't the delay still be the fault of the developer/publisher for announcing a date. More games should follow the Fallout 4 method of releasing. 

In terms of announcing and releasing. 

I completely agree. Every game should be only tentatively introduced with a "TBA" placeholder until they're close to the testing phase.