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Forums - Gaming - Native 4K or Checkerboard "uprendered" 4k

SvennoJ said:

If your fov on a 4K tv is 20 degrees you won't notice the difference between 1080p and 4K anyway. 20/20 vision allows for about 60 pixels per degree, average adults can make out about 80 pixels per degree and perhaps you still feel a difference at 120 pixels per degree, yet 192 is really pushing it (4K at 20)
http://phrogz.net/tmp/ScreenDens2In.html

Anyway since full screen motion blur and dof are so popular nowadays, kinda waste to render all that in full detail to blur it again straight after.

This is true, the simple truth is that there is a distance from a display that if you are at and even if you squint it will be impossible for you to make out the individual pixels. aka screen door effect. As long as you can't see that it's also impossible to see anything that the screen door effect artifact will cause. What you would notice then though is that entire image will just not seem as sharp as it maybe could be (assumimg  you hsve seen sharper) thats the generalized effect of the screen door thingy. 

This whole thing becomes less and less the higher a rez you are at. 

This all doesmt just quite apply to PC gamers becasue they are usually sitting between 3-4ft from their screens.  So a higher rez is always better in those situations. 

As for the motion blur thing.... I wouldn't be surprised in the least if it's one of the many ways these devs do tricks. They probably have systems in place where when using it everything it's applied to is rendered  at a lower setting or something. Just like this thing they do with polygons today (no not tesselation) some other tech where even though the CPU sends the blueprint for what should be drawn in a frame, it also sends instructions so the GPU only draws the geometry that are front facing or that the player will be able to see. 



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Conina said:

Why shouldn't there be a simple step like 720p->900p->1080p in standard upscaling? If 900p is an option for the 8th gen and 640p was an option for 7th gen, anything between 1920x1080 and 3840x2160 with up- or downscaling is also an option.

The Nvidia driver f.e. offers DSR-factors of 2.00 (2715x1527 on a 1920x1080 display), 2.25, 3.00 and 4.00 (3840x2160 on a 1920x1080 display) to improve picture quality and reduce aliasing. Or a game could render in 2560x1440... with a display in that resolution connected to the PS4P it would use native resolution, otherwise it would downscale on an 1080p display (with DSR profits) or upscale on 4K-displays.

I'm not saying that these are better solutions that the checkerbox mode of the PS4P, but the option is there and it could look better or worse depending on the game and the art style.

Yh that makes sense. But I think the thing is that the PS4pro using its 50% 4kc results in a better I than just rendering at 1440p then upscaling to 4k. And better results than down sampling from that to 1080p Cause if you think of it. 50% 4kc still has the PS4pro rendering around 500k more pixels than 1440p. I could be wrong tho... doing calculations in my head as I type. 



Intrinsic said:

so what happens if you decide to focus your eyes on the edge of the screen without moving the cursor?

you see exactly what you would see on a PS4 pro with 50% checkerboard.  
i was referencing the general concept of VR foveated rendering, but the difference is detail here is much less pronounced than there.

Intrinsic said:

And as for what's next between 50% 4kc and 4kn.... my guess would be anything that renders a larger number of real pixels per frame. As it stands the PS4pro renders 4M of the 8M pixels that makes up a native 4k image then using the checkerboard tech reconstructs the other 4M. If you could render 6M Pixels (75% 4kc) in a checkerboard pattern then that leaves you with only 2M pixels to reconstruct. The end product would be an image better than 50% 4kc.

 

This could be something that the scorpio could do with ease if it's psecs holds true. Though I have no idea exactly what sony's patents would stop them from doing. My guess is that it only stops them from making the same kinda customizations to their APU. But they should still be able to do it in software. 

right, although to be clear anything but 50% is no longer a "checkerboard", it is a checkerboard with some more squares filled in.
my idea was whether in some 1st person/ driving type games, whether it would be most advantages to concentrate those filled squares towards the center.
or even to include/ remove pixes (possibly below 50%) in areas that are LESS drawing of attention (e.g. the area beneath swinging foreground weapon).

Scorpio was definitely in my mind with this, because while it's possible it may have the power to do full 4K, it probably won't have any left.
So assuming devs would be attracted to using power for other things like lighting, FX, FPS, checkerboard may very well be attractive to use.
In some cases they may want to use 50% checkerboard, but if there is an intermediate step, that may be preferable... That's what I was trying to get at.



Conina said:
ICStats said:

The jaggies on the shoulder show some limit in the resolution, or in the type of antialiasing used.

Many of the other details, look like better textures as opposed to display resolution issues.  I wonder if they increased the texture resolution or not?  If not I wonder why not.  It may be a technical reason like insufficient RAM, but PS4 has quite a lot of RAM, so I would suspect they just haven't uprezzed the textures as that would mean a rebuild of all the assets and a large download.


The PS4 has a lot of RAM? For ultra textures?

Games can only use 5 GB of the 8 GB. These 5 GB unified RAM aren't reserved for the game's graphics alone, the whole rest of the game uses a part of this RAM, too.

Of course they have to make compromises in texture quality on consoles compared to high end PCs with 8 - 32 GB RAM plus 4 - 12 GB GPU-RAM.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2016/02/29/rise_tomb_raider_graphics_features_performance/13#.V9URYr46wlc

Yeah, makes sense.  It think from these screenshots that's the biggest differential adding blurryness, rather than the lack of native 4k resolution.  It's not going to compete with 6GB+ PC GPUs on texture details.

The geometry edge detail acutally looks really sharp, so if this is the result with checkerboarding it's very very good.



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Conina said:
Guitarguy said:

How about we compare the PS4 Pro version when it is finally complete and released? Comparing an unreleased PS4 Pro game to a 4k native released and buttoned up PC game running on Ultra settings is not really equal ground.

Sure, but these comparisons were started by PlayStation fans boasting about "how close the PS4 Pro graphics are to $1500 PC hardware" with many quotes like "I see no difference":

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=220191&page=1#

Ar you serious? you are saying its not close? why dont you give us a porcentage of how close you think it is?

CUz to the majority of people they would say and they have said that its pretty close, close enoughf to spend only $400 on it.



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

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eva01beserk said:
Conina said:

Sure, but these comparisons were started by PlayStation fans boasting about "how close the PS4 Pro graphics are to $1500 PC hardware" with many quotes like "I see no difference":

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=220191&page=1#

Ar you serious? you are saying its not close? why dont you give us a porcentage of how close you think it is?

CUz to the majority of people they would say and they have said that its pretty close, close enoughf to spend only $400 on it.

Lol ive been there.... 

I've given up on it though, just accepted that some purists will always find a way to knock down consoles. I mean if you read some of the posts here you would think the difference in question is akin to comparing 720p to 4k when in truth is more like comparing something higher than 1440p to 4k. 

I'm gonna probably end up with a 55-65" 4k HDR Tv this November. I'll be sitting around 7ft away from it when gaming... I would really like to see if  I can see these differences that they are talking about. I'm aware they are there, but I want to see how obviously inferior the image will be. Cause 1080p looked perfectly fine to me just 3 or so weeks ago before i sold my PS4. 



Intrinsic said:
eva01beserk said:

Ar you serious? you are saying its not close? why dont you give us a porcentage of how close you think it is?

CUz to the majority of people they would say and they have said that its pretty close, close enoughf to spend only $400 on it.

Lol ive been there.... 

I've given up on it though, just accepted that some purists will always find a way to knock down consoles. I mean if you read some of the posts here you would think the difference in question is akin to comparing 720p to 4k when in truth is more like comparing something higher than 1440p to 4k. 

I'm gonna probably end up with a 55-65" 4k HDR Tv this November. I'll be sitting around 7ft away from it when gaming... I would really like to see if  I can see these differences that they are talking about. I'm aware they are there, but I want to see how obviously inferior the image will be. Cause 1080p looked perfectly fine to me just 3 or so weeks ago before i sold my PS4. 

Oh Im sure the diferences are there, but Im pretty sure that I wont want to spend $1000 or more for them.

Im on the same boat as you, waiting for black friday to get a 4k tv and geting a neo as well.



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

eva01beserk said:
Intrinsic said:

Lol ive been there.... 

I've given up on it though, just accepted that some purists will always find a way to knock down consoles. I mean if you read some of the posts here you would think the difference in question is akin to comparing 720p to 4k when in truth is more like comparing something higher than 1440p to 4k. 

I'm gonna probably end up with a 55-65" 4k HDR Tv this November. I'll be sitting around 7ft away from it when gaming... I would really like to see if  I can see these differences that they are talking about. I'm aware they are there, but I want to see how obviously inferior the image will be. Cause 1080p looked perfectly fine to me just 3 or so weeks ago before i sold my PS4. 

Oh Im sure the diferences are there, but Im pretty sure that I wont want to spend $1000 or more for them.

Im on the same boat as you, waiting for black friday to get a 4k tv and geting a neo as well.

A 4K TV is also on my wishlist for xmas. Price will be around 1000-1500€. I will hook up my PC on it and play games with an xbox controller.



Intel Core i7 8700K | 32 GB DDR 4 PC 3200 | ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming | RTX 3090 FE| Crappy Monitor| HTC Vive Pro :3

Peh said:
eva01beserk said:

Oh Im sure the diferences are there, but Im pretty sure that I wont want to spend $1000 or more for them.

Im on the same boat as you, waiting for black friday to get a 4k tv and geting a neo as well.

A 4K TV is also on my wishlist for xmas. Price will be around 1000-1500€. I will hook up my PC on it and play games with an xbox controller.

What!!? Prices are inflated in EU right? Cuz Ive seen 60" samsung for $1000 here, maybe thinking that by black friday I can shave a cuple of hundred on it. Althought I have no Idea what the HDR functions are, it dint clarify on the add. I know I should be looking for 10bit colour, I know nothing else.



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

mutantsushi said:
SvennoJ said:

Foveated rendering could certainly work in racing games, and for any portion of the screen that is going to be motion blurred or receive dof anyway. In racing games most of what you're flying by is heavily blurred, only the competing cars and distant track need to be fully rendered. In FPS it might be easier to spot, yet even so, human sharp vision is very narrow, only a few words wide in a sentence at a time. Assuming you're looking near the center 99% of the time is not a bad assumption.

Yeah racing was one of things in my mind, where you're much less likely to dwell your vision on stuff outside the center. 
Of course this is talking about a larger area than VR foveated vision, and less drop off outside the area.
I guess the other approach to an "in between" is simply randomly adding more full-render pixels thru-out the entire screen.
It does seem like for 1st person views, that focusing those towards the center will yield the most perceptible improvement.
I guess I had thought renderers could natively output YUV/HSV/etc imagery (logically using textures etc in those formats as well), but perhaps not?

Perhaps, chroma subsampled you only need 15 bits per pixel instead of 30 for 10 bit color. If memory bandwidth is a bottleneck, saving half of it could help. All the pixels still need to be rendered though, and in a checkerboard pattern you don't want to lose extra color information as well. You'll end up with 1/2 res and 1/8th color info.
I guess you can use 4:2:2 subsampling 20 bits per pixel which with checkerboard ends up as 4:2:0 15 bits per pixel. Still just a memory saver, 9.88 MB for the checkerboard image in 4:2:2, 14.8 MB for the final 4K image in 4:2:0. Perhaps useful if you need to fit it in an esram buffer.