By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - US Presidential Election - Monitoring Swing States

Soonerman said:
Having lived in the U.S. for several years now, I have come to the conclusion that the electoral system is a joke. There is not and will not ever be a democracy in the U.S> until they move to the popular vote. All those "hard" red or blue states are controlled by one or two major cities that decide which way the "state" is voting.

Yep, and the only place where a vote to the contrary of your state matters is swing states.  



"You should be banned. Youre clearly flaming the president and even his brother who you know nothing about. Dont be such a partisan hack"

Around the Network

Large sums of the popuation live in those one or two cities, and even if the popular vote was applied you'd probably get similar trends, and the Rural would be down one president when Gore was elected. 

 

And we'd be all better off....



The Democratic Nintendo fan....is that a paradox? I'm fond of one of the more conservative companies in the industry, but I vote Liberally and view myself that way 90% of the time?

Actually, I've been told that the reason the U.S. does not want to give a voice to those outside the city is because then you would see how really conservative the country is. And I believe that. I live in a current mid-size city in New York state that is hard conservative and I believe all the other 2 or 3 cities are except for New York City. That to me seems to nullify people's voice and as you pointed out, if there was a popular vote election Gore would've won in 2000. For this country to move forward and stop having crazy people like Hillary or Trump you need to have popular vote.



And if we did have popular votes, the cities woud still dominate politics. The major cities are powerful, it doens't matter how many farmers who don't see the world beyond their farm and church think, they will still lose. 

The states may go to whoever gets the most votes, but that does not hide the fact that there are a lot of liberal voters in the country, concentrated in high population areas. 

And what would we get if the rural areas actually were powerful? Trump, Trump, Trump. 

Trump is a candidate for the Rural. The Rural viewpoint created him, and endorse him. They are the ones who want walls, they are the one who hate, they are the ones who create economic decisions that ruin the nation, they are the ones who caused the War of 1812, the Civil War, etc etc etc. 

 

(F.Y.I the War of 1812 was pushed by Southerners and Western Settlers, the Rural People. It was opposed by New England and other more urban areas. Low and behold, the war goes badly and the war they started threatens New Engand and New York the most.) 

 

(Also F.Y.I the Civil War was started by Southerners, who were at the time predominately Rural and dominated by slave holding plantation owners.)



The Democratic Nintendo fan....is that a paradox? I'm fond of one of the more conservative companies in the industry, but I vote Liberally and view myself that way 90% of the time?

The person who wins the electoral college almost always wins the popular vote anyway ... Bush in 2000 was a very narrow exception (he should have lost in that case).

Clinton is thrashing Trump in the popular vote polls right now anyway, she's up on Trump higher than Obama ever was vs. McCain or Romney at this point and Obama beat both of them soundly in both electoral and popular vote.



Around the Network

Trump's anti-Latino rhetoric could cost him Florida, Obama won Florida both of the last two elections too though it was close.

If Trump's words pissed off even 200,000-300,000 extra Latinos in Florida, the election is basically over before it even starts.

Virginia seems to be leaning blue hard right now too, Clinton's pick of Tim Kaine as VP (from Virginia, very popular there) was smart.

Bottom line is Republicans simply haven't adjusted to shifting demographics in the US and Trump isn't even crushing it with white voters as much as he was before ... he is losing badly among college educated whites, younger whites, and losing with women too.

Also Trump's campaign is disorganized as fuck, apparently in state like Virginia as of last month they still didn't even have a campaign office set up whereas Clinton has a great ground game with tons of volunteers. 



Shadow1980 said:

I think there are only eight states that can be unambiguously qualified as swing states at this point in U.S. history:


Pennsylvania is often referred to as a swing state, and while the vote can sometimes get close enough to where the term "swing state" might be appropriate, but in practice it really isn't a swing state. A Republican candidate has not won PA since Bush, Sr. in 1988 and that was a relatively narrow win (a 2.3-point gap). Ever since then the Democratic candidate has won. The narrowest margin of victory was in 2004, where Kerry beat Bush by 2.5 percentage points. But in every election since 2000, the Democratic candidate has not failed to capture a majority of the vote, and the margin of victory is usually quite comfortable. While 2004 was close, the margin of victory was 9 points in 1992, 9.2 points in 1996, 4.2 points in 2000, 10.4 points in 2008, and 6.4 points in 2012. Polling averages show Hillary with a very solid lead in the state.

As for Wisconsin, it was very close in 2000 and 2004, with a gap of less than one percentage point. They also elected and re-elected a very conservative and controversial governor. That might warrant it being called a swing state. However, the Democratic candidate for President has won every election there since 1988. Dukakis won by 3.6 points, Bill Clinton by 4.3 points in 1992 and 10.3 points in 1996, and Obama won by 13.9 points in 2008 and 6.9 points in 2012. Despite the narrow margins of the 2000 & 2004 elections, Wisconsin's consistent voting for Democrat for President since 1998, as well as the comfortable margins of victory by Clinton and Obama, makes Wisconsin's status as a swing state suspect. Current polling averages show Hillary with a wide lead over Trump in the state. RCP has her up by 9.4 points, and Huffpost Pollster has her up by 11.2 points.

And Michigan is most certainly not a swing state, either. It's been solidly Democratic since 1992. The narrowest margins of victory were in 2000 & 2004 (again), but they weren't too narrow. Gore won by 5.2 points and Kerry by 3.4 points. But Clinton and Obama won the state by significant margins. Obama's 2008 win was particularly large, beating McCain 57.4% to 41%, a 16.4-point difference. As with PA and WI, polling averages suggest Hillary will keep Michigan in the Democratic column, and by a decent margin.

If Trump cannot flip at least one of those big three Rust Belt states back into the GOP column, and he almost certainly won't win any of them, that narrows his path to victory substantially. He absolutely must win Florida. If Hillary wins Florida, she automatically wins the election. She could lose every other swing state and still become President with just Florida. Even if she fails to win Florida, there are numerous arrangements of the remaining seven swing states that could give her a win. Meanwhile, even if Trump wins Florida, he has far less to work with than Hillary. If he can pick up Ohio, NC, and Virginia, then he wins, but if he fails to win even one of those, that reduces his chances even more. Let's say Hillary wins either Virginia or NC (but not both) and Trump wins Florida, Ohio, and whichever of VA and NC Hillary loses. That gives Trump a slight lead. That also leaves Colorado, Nevada, Iowa, and New Hampshire. Trump would still have to win three out of four of those states to win. But if Hillary doesn't win Virginia or NC but does win Ohio, that means Trump would have to win all four of the smaller swing states in addition to Florida, VA, and NC in order to win.

Also, note that the map I posted keeps Arizona and Georgia red, but I did that to be generous to Trump. Polling data suggests they are both in play this election, so Hillary could potentially pull off an upset and win them as well, and if she wins either one of them that narrows Trump's path to victory to almost nil. If Hillary picks up AZ, that puts her at 253, and if she wins GA, that puts her at 258. If we remove AZ & GA from the "lean GOP" column to "swing state," that gives Trump only 169 guaranteed EC votes. If Hillary wins either AZ or GA, then Trump would need to win pretty much every other swing state in order to win.

So, worst-case scenario for Trump, he loses 369 to 169, a massive 200-vote margin. And absolute best-case scenario for him, if he somehow wins every swing state, he only wins 292-246, a narrower 46-vote margin.

That's the reality of the electoral map of today's America. The Democrats have a built-in advantage in Electoral College votes. The EC might have worked in Bush, Jr.'s favor in 2000 by just barely squeaking out a "victory" in Florida (thanks, Nader supporters), but due to demographic shifts the Dems now have such a huge lead in EC votes right out of the gate that the GOP, as they currently exist, has little chance to regain the White House unless the Dems field an absolutely terrible candidate and the GOP actually nominate a more moderate and sane candidate who doesn't have diarrhea of the mouth. The GOP needs to do some serious soul-searching after this election, because not only is Trump likely to lose, but the GOP needs to realize that demagogues like Trump are not what their party needs. They need to properly vet candidates and refuse to allow certain highly-controversial candidates to run as Republicans, they need to change the rules of their primaries to allocate delegates proportionally, and they may even need to take a page out of the Democratic handbook and introduce superdelegates. With an increasingly diverse electorate, candidates like Trump who appeal mainly to white conservatives with nativist tendencies are not going to have broad national appeal. If the GOP needs some serious reforms on where they stand on some key issues as well as their nomination process. Continuing on their present path will not do them any favors in the future.

Great post and contibution Shadow1980

I agree swing state is hard to define at times, and on my own map I agree the rust belt will go blue in 2016.  

I am curious about your views on Nevada, Colorado and New Mexico.

New Mexico went blue in 08 and 12 by strong margins and all indicators I found seem to suggest 16 be much of the same, yet you have it red.
I can agree Colorado as a swing, but it went blue in 08 and 12 by good margins as well and polling data I found shows Clinton up by 8-10 points there.
Nevada falls into that category as well, while Clinton's lead is less, my sense off past four election cycles is it going blue by about 2-3 points.

I see Arizona and Georgia hanging on as red, but they will be far more interesting and close than prior cycles.  If Virginia, North Carolina, and Georgia were to go blue have to rethink how both parties approach the south.



Real Clear Politics agregate shows Clinton with a pretty huge lead in Virginia. Up 7 points.

Obama won Virgina in both 2008 and 2012 too, pretty sure that's a now a state that leans heavily blue. Especially with Tim Kaine, former govenor of Virginia on the Clinton ticket.



Great analysis here :)

I'll share my nightmare scenario:


Click the map to create your own at 270toWin.com

Each candidate gets 269 and the tiebreaker goes to the House.

I think it unlikely. I expect Clinton to win Ohio, Florida, Nevada, NH, and North Carolina. But it keeps me up at night.



Shadow1980 said:
Nymeria said:

Great post and contibution Shadow1980

I agree swing state is hard to define at times, and on my own map I agree the rust belt will go blue in 2016.  

I am curious about your views on Nevada, Colorado and New Mexico.

New Mexico went blue in 08 and 12 by strong margins and all indicators I found seem to suggest 16 be much of the same, yet you have it red.
I can agree Colorado as a swing, but it went blue in 08 and 12 by good margins as well and polling data I found shows Clinton up by 8-10 points there.
Nevada falls into that category as well, while Clinton's lead is less, my sense off past four election cycles is it going blue by about 2-3 points.

I see Arizona and Georgia hanging on as red, but they will be far more interesting and close than prior cycles.  If Virginia, North Carolina, and Georgia were to go blue have to rethink how both parties approach the south.

New Mexico being red instead of blue was an error on my part. And that puts a small error in my math, but one that narrows Trump's paths to victory down considerably. I'll edit my post's text after I eat to account for that, but I did go ahead and change the map.

Colorado and Virginia are looking increasingly like a Clinton win. Those two alone would put her at 269, one vote short of what she needs. New Hampshire is looking increasingly safe for her as well, so CO, VA, and NH alone would put her over the 270 mark.

Nevada is close, as are Iowa, Florida, NC, and Ohio. I'd rate those five as the purest toss-up states. Arizona and Georgia will be interesting to watch as well, but I think Trump will still pull off a narrow victory in AZ. Georgia is up in the air, though. Trump had a lead throughout the primary season, but the two post-convention polls we have put Clinton in the lead. We need more polling data for Georgia.

With the current polling data, here's how I'd put everything in terms of blue, red, and toss-up:

 

Things aren't looking good for Trump. Not that I'm complaining. Things could change over the next three months, but unless he gets his act together, gets better with organizing his campaign, learns to watch his mouth, and has a great performance in the debates, this election will be Hillary's to lose. I think we'll see an electoral landslide comparable to what Obama got.

Oh, and in some interesting polling news, a new PPP poll puts my home state of South Carolina at Trump 41, Clinton 39, a slim two-point gap. Now, that's just a single poll, and we have hardly any other polling data for South Carolina, so I'd still rate SC at least as "lean GOP." But the most interesting takeaway from this poll is that under-65 voters in SC preferred Hillary over Trump 41% to 36%. That means that in the coming decades SC could become increasingly purple, though Georgia will likely become a true swing state much sooner. But even the possibility of the Democrats winning SC means that younger voters like myself don't need to sit on our duffs because we think SC is a "safe" state for the GOP. Every vote counts. Everywhere.

Clinton is up big in Colorado too, up 9 points according to RCP. Trump get slaughtered in younger demographics is not a surprise in the recent CNN poll (I think) he was losing to under 45 year old voters by a whopping 63-33 margin. The future of the GOP could be really fucked if they don't start making adjustments.