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Forums - Nintendo - MCV: NX Graphics In Between A PS3 And PS4

GhaudePhaede010 said:
Soundwave said:

I do find it funny that there is still the "No way can Nintendo have two performance modez, think about how complicated it would make things!" thing, but when Sony/MS now are basically doing the same thing it's not problem at all.

An NX having the same power envelope at home and on the go makes little sense to the point where that's really not even a "hybrid" in my opinion, that's just a portable.

Also why even have a dock, what's the point? Google Chromecast shows you can just have a wireless connection to the HDMI port which would be much more streamlined. Why force the system to be docked it also prevents it from being used as a home controller? Unless the dock is doing more than just sending a TV signal to the TV, which to me makes a lot more sense. 

We'll see but there's more to this than I think there is more to this design and I think there will be two different power modes for portable play and another for home play. Forcing the chip to perform at some weird "in between" set mode doesn't make sense to me either, in portable mode it likely would consume more power than it has to for no reason. IE: Even if you're saying 720p gaming ... 720p for a portable gaming is kinda overkill and would suck battery needlessly, they could have 960x540 frame and it would look good enough.

Otherwise this isn't really credibly a "hybrid", it's simply a portable. A TV out does not a console make and even in this scenario.

You have to keep in mind that the term, "hybrid" is not being used by Nintendo; rather, by anonymous sources and publications. As such, the word seems to be used very liberally considering the rumor. There is no rumor or implication that the shell is anything more than a video out/protector when the hand held is connected to it. If that changes, then people will have differing opinions, but based on these rumors, what you are wanting is wishful thinking.

I do think it is possible that Nintendo will have two different power sources, but when we are talking about these rumors right now, adding specualtion to it creates a serious problem. It means we are not talking about the same things anymore and makes discussion very archaic.

Personally I think if they are going to do this idea, then go all in and *commit* the idea, no half assing it. It is a real, legit portable AND console. 

- 1TFLOP custom Tegra N1 processor (16nm FinFET+), automatically downclocks to 400 GFLOPS in battery powered mode. Has a small pool of high speed RAM, 6GB LPDDR4 as main RAM. 1GB runs OS, 5GB for games. 

- Comes with a Home Dock, which is basically just a plastic dock with HDMI connectors, a few USB ports, a HDD bay, and most importantly a fan inside. When docked it actively cools the NX to allow it to run at full power mode (1 TFLOP). 

- If they can do that weird projector idea for *cheap*, I'd consider it, otherwise make that an optional accessorie. 

- Android apps are in. If you are an Android developer all you have to do is submit your app for approval to Nintendo and enable NX control modes (if needed). Easy, peasy. Nintendo gets a 30% cut of all revenue (same as Apple or Google take on iOS/Android devices). 

- On the road the idea is for it to be a party machine that people gather around and can play together or a really kick ass top of the line gaming tablet that can play Android games with phyiscal controls, Virtual Console games, and of course "real" console/NX games. 



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Straight from Nvidia's latest financial briefing (going on right now) ...

Pascal is twice as energy efficient as Maxwell.

Could be even more than that as I'm not sure that includes the benefits a Tegra would get from a 16nm shrink.



Soundwave said:

- Android apps are in. If you are an Android developer all you have to do is submit your app for approval to Nintendo and enable NX control modes (if needed). Easy, peasy. Nintendo gets a 30% cut of all revenue (same as Apple or Google take on iOS/Android devices). 

 

Do you have evidence to back that up? Like, straight from the horses mouth?
Or is that your own idea that you are trying to peddle?

Soundwave said:
Straight from Nvidia's latest financial briefing (going on right now) ...

Pascal is twice as energy efficient as Maxwell.

Could be even more than that as I'm not sure that includes the benefits a Tegra would get from a 16nm shrink.

There is only a marginal difference between 20nm that Tegra X1 was built on and 16nm FinFet.
Pascal being twice as energy efficient is a very dubious claim that we cannot actually substantiate untill Tegra "X2" drops using Pascal.

nVidia may be referencing the improvements it managed to glean from shifting from the Desktop 28nm maxwell to 16nm FinFet Pascal, which AMD also saw similar efficiency gains, rather than gains from the architecture improvements itself. Again. Not representative of Tegra.
Unless you can provide a quote from nVidia's financial briefing that contradicts that?

Soundwave said:

- 1TFLOP custom Tegra N1 processor (16nm FinFET+), automatically downclocks to 400 GFLOPS in battery powered mode. Has a small pool of high speed RAM, 6GB LPDDR4 as main RAM. 1GB runs OS, 5GB for games.


Such a memory set-up isn't going to happen. And there is a technical (Performance) and cost reason for that.

Also using Flops as some kind of "baseline" for performance is silly, wish people on this forum would stop abusing it.
Do you even understand what kind of Tflop you are even talking about?


Soundwave said:


- Comes with a Home Dock, which is basically just a plastic dock with HDMI connectors, a few USB ports, a HDD bay, and most importantly a fan inside. When docked it actively cools the NX to allow it to run at full power mode (1 TFLOP).

Proof? Or just repeating past personal ideas?

Soundwave said:


- On the road the idea is for it to be a party machine that people gather around and can play together or a really kick ass top of the line gaming tablet that can play Android games with phyiscal controls, Virtual Console games, and of course "real" console/NX games.


Don't bet on the OS being opened up allowing for a full compliment of the entire Android ecosystem.

You also have zero idea if the device is going to be "Top of the line". - For one, you don't even know what kind of screen it will have, how much or what type of memory, how fast the storage solution is. etc'.
And Tegra typically does not have the fastest CPU on the market either, Denver 2 will likely not change that much.

The device will be bulkier and heavier thanks to the physical controls. I have a gamepad tablet. It can be cumbersome to use as a regular tablet.




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Pemalite said:
Soundwave said:

- Android apps are in. If you are an Android developer all you have to do is submit your app for approval to Nintendo and enable NX control modes (if needed). Easy, peasy. Nintendo gets a 30% cut of all revenue (same as Apple or Google take on iOS/Android devices). 

 

Do you have evidence to back that up? Like, straight from the horses mouth?
Or is that your own idea that you are trying to peddle?

Soundwave said:
Straight from Nvidia's latest financial briefing (going on right now) ...

Pascal is twice as energy efficient as Maxwell.

Could be even more than that as I'm not sure that includes the benefits a Tegra would get from a 16nm shrink.

There is only a marginal difference between 20nm that Tegra X1 was built on and 16nm FinFet.
Pascal being twice as energy efficient is a very dubious claim that we cannot actually substantiate untill Tegra "X2" drops using Pascal.

nVidia may be referencing the improvements it managed to glean from shifting from the Desktop 28nm maxwell to 16nm FinFet Pascal, which AMD also saw similar efficiency gains, rather than gains from the architecture improvements itself. Again. Not representative of Tegra.
Unless you can provide a quote from nVidia's financial briefing that contradicts that?

Soundwave said:

- 1TFLOP custom Tegra N1 processor (16nm FinFET+), automatically downclocks to 400 GFLOPS in battery powered mode. Has a small pool of high speed RAM, 6GB LPDDR4 as main RAM. 1GB runs OS, 5GB for games.


Such a memory set-up isn't going to happen. And there is a technical (Performance) and cost reason for that.

Also using Flops as some kind of "baseline" for performance is silly, wish people on this forum would stop abusing it.
Do you even understand what kind of Tflop you are even talking about?


Soundwave said:


- Comes with a Home Dock, which is basically just a plastic dock with HDMI connectors, a few USB ports, a HDD bay, and most importantly a fan inside. When docked it actively cools the NX to allow it to run at full power mode (1 TFLOP).

Proof? Or just repeating past personal ideas?

Soundwave said:


- On the road the idea is for it to be a party machine that people gather around and can play together or a really kick ass top of the line gaming tablet that can play Android games with phyiscal controls, Virtual Console games, and of course "real" console/NX games.


Don't bet on the OS being opened up allowing for a full compliment of the entire Android ecosystem.

You also have zero idea if the device is going to be "Top of the line". - For one, you don't even know what kind of screen it will have, how much or what type of memory, how fast the storage solution is. etc'.
And Tegra typically does not have the fastest CPU on the market either, Denver 2 will likely not change that much.

The device will be bulkier and heavier thanks to the physical controls. I have a gamepad tablet. It can be cumbersome to use as a regular tablet.

I was stating MY opinion that if they are designing a hybrid then they should COMMIT fully to the idea, which is to making something that is a true hybrid (as in can function reasonably as a console AND portable device). But that would be my personal approach in designing such a machine, I don't see the point of pursuing this idea if you're just going to half-ass it. 

I never said that was what Nintendo would do. 

I think this idea has potential, but whether Nintendo chooses to actually create something that takes advantage of said potential is an open question that no one can answer right now except Nintendo themselves. 

As always with Nintendo it's a question of what they want, not a question of what is possible. Wii U certainly could have been far more powerful even using 2011/2012 technology, they are the ones that chose a gimped hardware approach. 

If the NX hardware sucks then so be it. I won't be happy about it, but I'll move on and play the games, because at the end of the day that's what's important. 



Soundwave said:
JustBeingReal said:

See reply in bold.

I don't believe there's room. Beyond that I don't suppose it ever occured to anyone that Nintendo simply doesn't want to be like Microsoft or Sony. They just don't. At some point it becomes like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. 

Not to be an a**, but it really doesn't matter what you believe, if there's customer sales to be made, then there's room.

FYI making a platform that merges their handheld and console player base into one makes Nintendo different if that's what they're doing, outside of that it comes down to everyone building a box with it's own style of design and basically providing the world with access to a dedicated gaming device or devices at it's core.

Nintendo aren't unique, they've just convinced a bunch of people that they are.

Sony makes colorful, family friendly games, Microsoft have done too and 3rd party does as well, so this fallacy about Nintendo being the only one providing family appropriate games is exactly that.

They don't want to be that company, they've had 100 chances to go that route over the last 20 years and have basically refused to do so every single time. Get Resident Evil exclusive? Ah yeah, Nintendo going hardcor ... oh wait they made their console purple and cell shaded Zelda ... riiiiiight. 

They're a game developing company, they're already that company, they've ignored where their customers have gone, their tastes and they're suffering for it.

FYI Resident evil was exclusive for a time on Gamecube and it also had models in black, even silver, having colorful options doesn't mean a thing, hell Vita can be bought in all kinds of different colors, there are covers for PS4 that change it's color to more kiddy style options, tonnes of console makers have provided those options, but it doesn't mean they're kiddy only.

Nintendo backing ZombiU, Metroid, Bayonetta 2, etc proves that they aren't all family friendly, clearly they just haven't approached the task of making games for the market in the right way and they haven't understood who is really packing the buying power nowadays.

I don't think NX is going to be the PS4-killer console. Nintendo doesn't want to make that machine, you can rationalize why they should a million different ways, but they aren't going to listen. 

Who said anything about NX being a PS4-killer? It sure as hell wasn't me, making something that can handle the majority of games that developers want to make is a different thing entirely, as is wanting to gain a piece of the pie.

I don't have to rationalize something that is logical, from a gaming business standpoint.

Also I am just saying that this is Nintendo's best bet, otherwise they will just continue to loose their player base over time to other systems that provide more options.

And maybe at this point it's for the best anyway. Maybe this approach fails but the opposite approach could fail just as easily. 

This approach actually gives them the best chance, no it certainly wouldn't fail as much as Nintendo's current approach has been, Sony and Microsoft are clear examples of doing things right and Nintendo should quit with their arrogance and actually learn from people that learned this lesson a long time ago.

Nintendo is a kid-friendly/toy-centric company. That is their heritage and honestly I don't see them changing that. 

Nintendo are game makers, just like Playstation is (and to a lesser extent Microsoft), games consoles are toys, but they're also access points to a form of entertainment that's boundaries are only as limiting as the content creators that make titles for them.

Nintendo being only kiddy or kiddy centric is the problem, kids grow up, but they don't always stop gaming.

See reply in bold.



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JustBeingReal said:
Soundwave said:

I don't believe there's room. Beyond that I don't suppose it ever occured to anyone that Nintendo simply doesn't want to be like Microsoft or Sony. They just don't. At some point it becomes like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. 

Not to be an a**, but it really doesn't matter what you believe, if there's customer sales to be made, then there's room.

FYI making a platform that merges their handheld and console player base into one makes Nintendo different if that's what they're doing, outside of that it comes down to everyone building a box with it's own style of design and basically providing the world with access to a dedicated gaming device or devices at it's core.

Nintendo aren't unique, they've just convinced a bunch of people that they are.

Sony makes colorful, family friendly games, Microsoft have done too and 3rd party does as well, so this fallacy about Nintendo being the only one providing family appropriate games is exactly that.

They don't want to be that company, they've had 100 chances to go that route over the last 20 years and have basically refused to do so every single time. Get Resident Evil exclusive? Ah yeah, Nintendo going hardcor ... oh wait they made their console purple and cell shaded Zelda ... riiiiiight. 

They're a game developing company, they're already that company, they've ignored where their customers have gone, their tastes and they're suffering for it.

FYI Resident evil was exclusive for a time on Gamecube and it also had models in black, even silver, having colorful options doesn't mean a thing, hell Vita can be bought in all kinds of different colors, there are covers for PS4 that change it's color to more kiddy style options, tonnes of console makers have provided those options, but it doesn't mean they're kiddy only.

Nintendo backing ZombiU, Metroid, Bayonetta 2, etc proves that they aren't all family friendly, clearly they just haven't approached the task of making games for the market in the right way and they haven't understood who is really packing the buying power nowadays.

I don't think NX is going to be the PS4-killer console. Nintendo doesn't want to make that machine, you can rationalize why they should a million different ways, but they aren't going to listen. 

Who said anything about NX being a PS4-killer? It sure as hell wasn't me, making something that can handle the majority of games that developers want to make is a different thing entirely, as is wanting to gain a piece of the pie.

I don't have to rationalize something that is logical, from a gaming business standpoint.

Also I am just saying that this is Nintendo's best bet, otherwise they will just continue to loose their player base over time to other systems that provide more options.

And maybe at this point it's for the best anyway. Maybe this approach fails but the opposite approach could fail just as easily. 

This approach actually gives them the best chance, no it certainly wouldn't fail as much as Nintendo's current approach has been, Sony and Microsoft are clear examples of doing things right and Nintendo should quit with their arrogance and actually learn from people that learned this lesson a long time ago.

Nintendo is a kid-friendly/toy-centric company. That is their heritage and honestly I don't see them changing that. 

Nintendo are game makers, just like Playstation is (and to a lesser extent Microsoft), games consoles are toys, but they're also access points to a form of entertainment that's boundaries are only as limiting as the content creators that make titles for them.

Nintendo being only kiddy or kiddy centric is the problem, kids grow up, but they don't always stop gaming.

See reply in bold.

Well it doesn't look like Nintendo heeded your advice with Wii or Wii U, and from the reports we are getting, it doesn't sound like NX is the system you are hoping for either.

I think one of the hard things for people to accept is the Nintendo of the 90s is no more. Yamauchi has passed away, and Howard Lincoln and Minoru Arakawa (key figures for Nintendo of America) are gone. The GameCube was largely developed/conceptulized in the late 90s too. They are a different type of company today.

From the sounds of it and I've read interviews from Mr. Iwata that say as much, to him in the later years of his life, Mr. Yamauchi stressed upon Iwata to not be like Sony/MS and to always be different. And I think this philosphy has basically carried on from there. 

Nintendo will make the occasional Bayonetta 2 type project (like maybe once a year or two at best) but they will never be comfortable having those types of games being a large chunk of their output. They are known for family friendly IP that are cartoony in nature and that's just where it seems they feel more comfortable. 



Soundwave said:

“It’s a nice bit of kit, a bit of a novelty, but a good one,” one executive that went hands-on with the machine told MCV. “It won’t appeal to PS4 fans. Nintendo seems set on trying to upgrade smartphone gamers. That’s going to be a big job for the marketing department.”

So what sort of gamers do Nintendo think PS4 fans are...?



LivingMetal said:
Soundwave said:

“It’s a nice bit of kit, a bit of a novelty, but a good one,” one executive that went hands-on with the machine told MCV. “It won’t appeal to PS4 fans. Nintendo seems set on trying to upgrade smartphone gamers. That’s going to be a big job for the marketing department.”

So what sort of gamers do Nintendo think PS4 fans are...?

I think the guy is saying it won't appeal to the demographics the PS4 is strong ie: violent action games, FPS gamers, sports sim fans, those who place a priority on graphics. 



Soundwave said:
LivingMetal said:

So what sort of gamers do Nintendo think PS4 fans are...?

I think the guy is saying it won't appeal to the demographics the PS4 is strong ie: violent action games, FPS gamers, sports sim fans, those who place a priority on graphics. 

PS4 gamesr also like RPG's and racing games and if graphics were their priority The Order 1886 and Driveclub would have been the best selling games on the system, not Call of Duty.

PS4 gamers like good gameplay, smartphone gamers like cutesy game with crap gameplay, if that's who Nintendo is trying to appeal to gamers will not even care about the NX.



Soundwave said:
JustBeingReal said:

See reply in bold.

Look at the NPD chart every month, where are the family games every month? *crickets*. How many family games are even available on the XB1 or PS4? 

People already have a Playstation 4 for the games you want, so buy a Playstation 4. Like what's the problem?

Nintendo is never going to fill that role, they are not that type of company and never will be. They make their style of games and their style of games are not what's selling home consoles anymore. It sucks but it is what it is, Nintendo is better off focusing on a market that is far more friendly to their style of gaming.

"Cater to the 3rd party market" basically means make violent Western action games. And that's never, ever, ever going to be Nintendo's M.O., nor does it need to be since 103939048309438 other companies already serve that role. 

There's already *four* (4!!!!) consoles that are trying to cater to this same market in a year's time. No one is asking for five but a very small niche group of people, Nintendo would have no chance. The direction of the NX even if it pisses off people who want basically the same thing x5 is IMO smart. They have no chance against 4 other consoles relying predominantly on family friend franchises. Maybe if it was 1995, but that it ain't. 

Focus your resources on the more Nintendo friendly portable market, if you can sell 50-60 million NXes and reap monster profits on mobile games ... that's more than fine for Nintendo. 

Counting neo and scorpio as new consoles, cute. Almost worthy of pity.