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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - MCV: NX Graphics In Between A PS3 And PS4

Soundwave said:
CaptainExplosion said:
This better not be the specs for an NX console. Nintendo get your shit together!!

This is the console. That's the idea, it's both. 

I wouldn't be too sure about that:

Iwata, January '13:  "Last year we also started a project to integrate the architecture for our future platforms. What we mean by integrating platforms is not integrating handhelds devices and home consoles to make only one machine."

Kinda at odds with what Eurogamer is suggesting, at least in that there is only this handheld device and no console.



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Soundwave said:
curl-6 said:

540p isn't a get out of jail free card, it won't allow PS4 graphics on a handheld. Downgrades would still have to be made to textures, shaders, effects, geometry, etc.

You simply can't run FFXV on a portable in 2017, even at 540p, the technology just isn't there yet.

 

They're some of the most important though. FFXV, FF7R and KH3 are orders of magnitude more important than pretty much any of the multiplats Vita/PS3 get. They get the second-rate stuff like Star Ocean.

We don't know. I just showed a mobile Nvidia processor ... albiet a laptop one that's only 550 GFLOPS running PS4/XB1 only games at 720p no less. 

Can the Pascal Nvidia Tegra X2 match the Nvidia 730M from Jan 2013? I'm thinking it probably can. No only is the power envelope closing but the architectural advances will be huge too. 

PS4 graphics in a portable form factor in March 2017 is a physical impossibility. A laptop has far more room to breathe in terms of size, heat generation, and power consumption than a portable. Resolution isn't the only issue either; it won't be able to submit enough polygons, it won't have enough memory to store all the textures, etc.

I'm forced to agree with fatslob here, you're being way, waaaay too optimistic regarding NX.



archbrix said:
Soundwave said:

This is the console. That's the idea, it's both. 

I wouldn't be too sure about that:

Iwata, January '13:  "Last year we also started a project to integrate the architecture for our future platforms. What we mean by integrating platforms is not integrating handhelds devices and home consoles to make only one machine."

Kinda at odds with what Eurogamer is suggesting, at least in that there is only this handheld device and no console.

Yes it's true he said that, but a full year later in January '14, he hedges against this and says they may only need one form factor:

Iwata, January 2014:

"Still, I am not sure if the form factor (the size and configuration of the hardware) will be integrated. In contrast, the number of form factors might increase. Currently, we can only provide two form factors because if we had three or four different architectures, we would face serious shortages of software on every platform. To cite a specific case, Apple is able to release smart devices with various form factors one after another because there is one way of programming adopted by all platforms. Apple has a common platform called iOS. Another example is Android. Though there are various models, Android does not face software shortages because there is one common way of programming on the Android platform that works with various models. The point is, Nintendo platforms should be like those two examples. Whether we will ultimately need just one device will be determined by what consumers demand in the future, and that is not something we know at the moment."

You can see there to start with Iwata is now no longer sure if the form factor will be integrated (it's an open question now). Then he finishes by saying he doesn't know if they need only one form factor entirely. So that means something happened between Jan 2013 and Jan 2014. 

My guess is NX started off as a multi-hardware concept, and Nintendo actually even built multiple prototypes through out 2013 and 2014, but the hybrid model was so much more compelling to them that they decided to go fully behind the hybrid/integrated concept. 

That doesn't surprise me either. A hybrid console is something I can totally see giving Nintendo's R&D staff a raging boner moreso than a vanilla shoe-box stationary console that they're probably bored of making. The hybrid prototype likely quickly became the darling of their R&D labs. 



Soundwave said:
archbrix said:

I wouldn't be too sure about that:

Iwata, January '13:  "Last year we also started a project to integrate the architecture for our future platforms. What we mean by integrating platforms is not integrating handhelds devices and home consoles to make only one machine."

Kinda at odds with what Eurogamer is suggesting, at least in that there is only this handheld device and no console.

Yes it's true he said that, but a full year later in January '14, he hedges against this and says they may only need one form factor:

Iwata, January 2014:

"Still, I am not sure if the form factor (the size and configuration of the hardware) will be integrated. In contrast, the number of form factors might increase. Currently, we can only provide two form factors because if we had three or four different architectures, we would face serious shortages of software on every platform. To cite a specific case, Apple is able to release smart devices with various form factors one after another because there is one way of programming adopted by all platforms. Apple has a common platform called iOS. Another example is Android. Though there are various models, Android does not face software shortages because there is one common way of programming on the Android platform that works with various models. The point is, Nintendo platforms should be like those two examples. Whether we will ultimately need just one device will be determined by what consumers demand in the future, and that is not something we know at the moment."

You can see there to start with Iwata is now no longer sure if the form factor will be integrated (it's an open question now). Then he finishes by saying he doesn't know if they need only one form factor entirely. So that means something happened between Jan 2013 and Jan 2014. 

My guess is NX started off as a multi-hardware concept, and Nintendo actually even built multiple prototypes through out 2013 and 2014, but the hybrid model was so much more compelling to them that they decided to go fully behind the hybrid/integrated concept. 

You certainly could be right.  Still, there's a new leaker out there currently making the rounds who goes by "Happy Nintendo Fan" who's claiming that there is indeed a dedicated home console that is x86 and features an FPGA (field programmable gate array) chip to help with the extra processing muscle.  Whether this guy is truly legit is anybody's guess but supposedly he's been vetted by a couple of sites including Gaf as having sources at or very close to Nintendo.  In any case, here's a vid on the subject from Studio Q (formerly Pretendo):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZU3mIkVqZU



zorg1000 said:
oniyide said:

True but it still sold a lot less than DS. My point is that power doesnt gaurantee sales especially if there is cheaper on the market that is good enough. Hell this is the first gen we've had where the most powerful system is on top (PS4)

Well no shame in that, DS is the best selling handheld of all time and virtually tied with PS2 as best selling gaming device of all time.

 

I get what your saying but your original post was worded a bit strangely, it came off as you were calling people who liked the idea of a powerful handheld hypocrites.

i was more questiong the people, if this device was made by Sony or even MS would the people praising it care? 



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zorg1000 said:
curl-6 said:

The big stuff like Final Fantasy XV, FF7 Remake, KH3, the ones actually made for PS4/X1, aren't coming to PS3 or Vita.

Those games make up a small percentage of Japanese PS4 games.

but those are the big guns. they are pretty much Japanese AAA games.

Which begs the question will this system get those Japanese AAA games?



curl-6 said:
oniyide said:

makes sense. Which IMHO wont help getting ports, but I think alot of people gave up on that.

It certainly won't be getting the likes of Battlefield, Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, GTA, etc, but I'd say it has a chance at absorbing at least some of the 3DS's Japanese third party support.

You'll get no argument from me in that regard and thats great...for Japan. That doesnt really do much for the prospect outside of their native land especially since the NX might not even get the games that people outside of Japan kinda care about. Your FFs, KHs, REs etc.



oniyide said:
curl-6 said:

It certainly won't be getting the likes of Battlefield, Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, GTA, etc, but I'd say it has a chance at absorbing at least some of the 3DS's Japanese third party support.

You'll get no argument from me in that regard and thats great...for Japan. That doesnt really do much for the prospect outside of their native land especially since the NX might not even get the games that people outside of Japan kinda care about. Your FFs, KHs, REs etc.

It could indeed be a very tough sell in the West, but I'm withholding judgement until we know it's price and the sort of software it's getting.



oniyide said:
curl-6 said:

It certainly won't be getting the likes of Battlefield, Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, GTA, etc, but I'd say it has a chance at absorbing at least some of the 3DS's Japanese third party support.

You'll get no argument from me in that regard and thats great...for Japan. That doesnt really do much for the prospect outside of their native land especially since the NX might not even get the games that people outside of Japan kinda care about. Your FFs, KHs, REs etc.

While I doubt FF will get there, RE: Revelations was first released on 3DS and then ported to consoles. There comes a point where people begin to realize these hand helds are rapidly approaching console games in terms of quality; maybe not graphically, however. Monster Hunter for example, is a complete console game on a hand held. This console may not get ports, but to think it cannot get its own worthy titles from some of those franchises (Final Fantasy aside) would be a little prematurely pessimistic.



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Micolash said:
The graphical upgrade from PS3 to PS4 is mediocre at best and sometimes you can't even tell the difference

Wut.

Soundwave said:
CaptainExplosion said:

Even still it needs a shitload more power than that! Other wise third parties are gonna take one look at it and say "Pfft!", and go back to PlayStation.

If it can run PS4/XB1 ports at 960x540 on the road, it'll be fine. Will get a good amount of third party support specifically from Japan, probably will be the first Nintendo console since the SNES to have proper Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest (DQX being online doesn't count) games and the first to have a mainline Kingdom Hearts game. 

It will only get the ports if the console sells in sufficient quantities.
If it bombs like the Wii U, don't expect anything outside of the initial launch window.

For instance the Wii U missed out on the likes of most Frostbite powered games that even ended up on the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3. (Everything from Battlefield 3 to Dragon Age: Inquisiton.)

There is also more to rendering a game than simply just lowering the resolution too, some effects simply don't get less demanding by dropping the resolution.
Tegra also has different performance characteristics than AMD's APU's, especially when it comes to more modern graphics techniques, where AMD typically comes out ahead, that will hamper porting efforts and you may see some serious cutbacks to graphics.

Soundwave said:
curl-6 said:

Regarding ports, getting PS4/X1 software up and running on Tegra X1 is a feat similar to getting it running on Wii U/PS3/360, so I don't really expect it'll get many ports from PS4/X1.

A portable would have several cheats it could employ though ... first and foremost those games on a portable screen will look just fine even at 960x540. 

That means they can run on the portable at 1/4th the pixels, which also means suddenly a 500 GFLOP GPU in portable mode probably would be able to run a lot of ports. 

Here's a Nvidia 730M laptop mobile GPU btw (550 GFLOPS) ... it can run PS4/XB1 only games like Assassin's Creed Unity at 720p even:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7o4l1NEoxs

Here's it running Fallout 4 (another PS4/XB1 only title):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK4avIWp7EI

What kind of Gflop?
What is the relationship of Gflop's and Resolution?

Geforce 730M cannot be compared to Tegra on flops alone.

Anything less than 720P on a mobile device is unacceptable in my eyes.

niceguygameplayer said:

From what I gathered, the Wii U is a little weaker than the PS3. The NX may be a little stronger than PS3. That would keep costs down and still provide pretty good graphics.

The Wii U is actually a little bit faster than both the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3, when games are made it's way.

It needs to be allot faster than the last gen consoles though, they are showing their age and games tend to look extremely terrible on those platforms now.
You also need orders of magnitude more performance just to double the graphics quality now as well.

Soundwave said:
curl-6 said:

Monster Hunter and Dragon Quest sure, NX may even be lead platform for those. But PS4 stuff like Final Fantasy XV, or FF7 Remake? If NX really is Tegra X1 powered, that's like trying to get FF13 running on the Vita.

Again at 960x540 makes a big difference, at that resolution a 500 GFLOP Tegra X1 even punches at the weight of a 2 TFLOP processor because it only has to render 1/4th the pixels of a console that has to do it at 1080p. 

A Vita is a 38 GFLOP machine, trying to get FF13 (from 250-300 GFLOP consoles) to run on it is a much bigger problem. If a Vita was 100-120 gigaflops, I think yeah maybe FF13 would be possible at 640x480 or something. 

Also I don't think Nintendo is using stock Tegra X1 either, they're probably using the Pascal successor to X1, which will be announced/shown this month by Nvidia (the Tegra X2 basically). 

No.
I don't think you understand what "flops" is truly about.

Soundwave said:

We don't know. I just showed a mobile Nvidia processor ... albiet a laptop one that's only 550 GFLOPS running PS4/XB1 only games at 720p no less. 

Can the Pascal Nvidia Tegra X2 (16nm) match the Nvidia 730M (28nm) from Jan 2013? I'm thinking it probably can. Not only is the power envelope closing but the architectural advances will be huge too. 

You cannot compare two different processors on flops alone.

For instance if the Geforce 730M has superior bandwidth, larger caches, more polymorph engines, more ROPS, more TMU's, then the Tegra could be built at 16nm, have twice the Gflop's and still be slower.

curl-6 said:

 

I'm forced to agree with fatslob here, you're being way, waaaay too optimistic regarding NX.

Makes 3 of us.



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