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Forums - Sony Discussion - PS4 Neo Could Be 5.5tf ($399 - $599)

Snoopy said:

AMD and John Carmack said it himself that you can get out almost twice as much with a console than you can with a PC counterpart due to optimization. A 6tf console is equivalent to a 9tf = 10tf console easily.

You need to take into account the era that statement was made.
The PC didn't have low-level API's which drove up performance... And nVidia and AMD have spent many many many many years and tons and tons of cash and massive amounts of man hours in optimising their hardware AND drivers/software for the best possible performance.

For example, AMD took note of the PC transitioning from Direct X 9 to Direct X 10/11 and made shifts in it's GPU architectures so that it's hardware could better utilise newer rendering techniques, the result was a shift from VLIW 5 to VLIW 4 and then to Graphics Core Next.
And now we are seeing a similar shift with hardware being better optimized for Vulkan and Direct X 12 thanks to Graphics Core Next 4.

In Short, the PC is very different today in regards to optimization than it was in the Xbox 360/Playstation 3 and prior era's.

Not only that... But if you look at the newer consoles, they all have large and complex OS's, they even reserve more memory than a fully fledged Windows or Linux install would typically use, which eat's away at that 8Gb of Ram.

Do consoles still have an optimization edge? Heck yes. But it's not as large as it used to be...
And typically PC games have better graphics anyway, so it's not always Apples to Apples comparison.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

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Intrinsic said:

Simple answer, is absolutely. And for a number of reasons. Though things like direct x, mantle...etc on the PC end aim to get more out of the chips but you will still get more oit of any console chipset than with a similar chipset in a PC. There are a number of inherited redundancies on the PC side, basically its strenght of being able to hash nearly any component together and get them to work is also its greatest weakness. Lots of legacy  stuff have to be carried over to ensure compatibility. 

lets not also forget that on the PC end, under it all you are also running a very veey involved OS that is constantly managing lots of services. Take for instance, more Ram is alloted jist to move the mouse cusor on a PC than all pf the OS memory reserve on the PS3/360. 

Another key factor is optimization. The word gets thrown around a lot but seldom ever truly understood. A dev working on a console will know that the console build he has for it will work on eveey single console of that platform. With a PC, devs will habe to code for things that they wouldnt even ever need to consider on a console (its kimda why throwing in a SSD in a PS4 wouldnt yeild the gains it would yeild on a PC. 

Is it logical to assume then, any console that intergrates Windows 10 (fully) would or could suffer the same problems as a PC? Assuming the Neo is 4.2tf and the Scorpio is 6tf, is it possible that in 'real terms' the Neo could outperform or equal the Scorpio (for gaming)  if MS fully embrace their new strategy and incorporate everything on the console that's on a PC?



 

The PS5 Exists. 


GribbleGrunger said:
Intrinsic said:

Simple answer, is absolutely. And for a number of reasons. Though things like direct x, mantle...etc on the PC end aim to get more out of the chips but you will still get more oit of any console chipset than with a similar chipset in a PC. There are a number of inherited redundancies on the PC side, basically its strenght of being able to hash nearly any component together and get them to work is also its greatest weakness. Lots of legacy  stuff have to be carried over to ensure compatibility. 

lets not also forget that on the PC end, under it all you are also running a very veey involved OS that is constantly managing lots of services. Take for instance, more Ram is alloted jist to move the mouse cusor on a PC than all pf the OS memory reserve on the PS3/360. 

Another key factor is optimization. The word gets thrown around a lot but seldom ever truly understood. A dev working on a console will know that the console build he has for it will work on eveey single console of that platform. With a PC, devs will habe to code for things that they wouldnt even ever need to consider on a console (its kimda why throwing in a SSD in a PS4 wouldnt yeild the gains it would yeild on a PC. 

Is it logical to assume then, any console that intergrates Windows 10 (fully) would or could suffer the same problems as a PC? Assuming the Neo is 4.2tf and the Scorpio is 6tf, is it possible that in 'real terms' the Neo could outperform or equal the Scorpio (for gaming)  if MS fully embrace their new strategy and incorporate everything on the console that's on a PC?

I don't think they would put the downside as well



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:

I don't think they would put the downside as well

If MS go fully PC they would. I believe that from now on all games will be developed for the PC and ported over to the XB1. If the Scorpio is indeed just a PC along the lines of Alienware then any game made for the PC will just work on the XB1 because it's also a PC.



 

The PS5 Exists. 


GribbleGrunger said:

Is it logical to assume then, any console that intergrates Windows 10 (fully) would or could suffer the same problems as a PC? Assuming the Neo is 4.2tf and the Scorpio is 6tf, is it possible that in 'real terms' the Neo could outperform or equal the Scorpio (for gaming)  if MS fully embrace their new strategy and incorporate everything on the console that's on a PC?

Errrr.... I don't think MS would put on a full windows on an xbox. They just don't need to. They have PCs for that. And lets not forget MS is a software company. They can shoe in a console version of windows that use mobile platform apps and that will still be under the banner of windows 10. More importantly, its still a dedicated platform. As far as their xbox kernel goes, they will only acooint for way less hardware configurations

Anyways, i doubt MS will gimp the scorpio that much. They just don't need to habe a full blown windows on a console. 



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GribbleGrunger said:
DonFerrari said:

I don't think they would put the downside as well

If MS go fully PC they would. I believe that from now on all games will be developed for the PC and ported over to the XB1. If the Scorpio is indeed just a PC along the lines of Alienware then any game made for the PC will just work on the XB1 because it's also a PC.

I guess MS can launch a Scorpio or Xbox line of desktop/notebook or even their version of steambox, but I don't think they would go full PC on the Xbox line of gaming devices, but if they end up doing a desktop/notebook from MS ok.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Intrinsic said:
drkohler said:

We have all the clarifications we need.

So far, reviews show that all the AMD RX480 cards draw around 160W.

This settles the question how fast the Sony SoC will be. Even the rumoured/leaked 911MHz gpu clock probably is at the high end of what goes.

What is it with people these days? Now its power supply? smh

A discrete GPU recieving power is recieving power for eveerything in the GPU. Chip, memory and fan and any other electrical component in there. I mean memory alone can draw up to 20W!!!! And are you aware that even if the PS4 uses around 90-150W in total poeer right now its PSU is rated at 230-250W?

I don't think you really know what you are trying to say.

Let's take any RX480 5.5TF card. It draws over 160W to achieve this as per all the reviews we see. This wattage is drawn by the mosfets (7phases, apparently) that run the gpu and the 8G memory, and 1-2 fans.

Now move over to the Ps4 Neo. What do we have additionally here that needs power?

a) a motherboard with all interfaces (HDMI, SATA, USB2, IR, etc).

b) a cpu assembly (probably 6-8 cores Zen lite) needing its own mosfets (2-3 phases).

c) all the rest of the good stuff (something like a Soutthbridge/an arm processor with memory, a harddisk, a blu-ray drive, etc).

All this would bring you to way over 200W which is an absolute no-no for a console. You won't believe it but there actually are laws (at least in Europe) that regulate how much power a console is allowed to draw....

And if you are puzzled by the PS4's psu, a generic psu is best operated around 50-60% of its tpu rating, that is well known and you can see that in every data sheet of every generic psu. Unless it is an expensive psu tailor made for running at 90%+. You'll never find such a thing in a console.



DonFerrari said:

I guess MS can launch a Scorpio or Xbox line of desktop/notebook or even their version of steambox, but I don't think they would go full PC on the Xbox line of gaming devices, but if they end up doing a desktop/notebook from MS ok.

We'll have to wait and see but I'm not the only person to suggest MS are moving away from their console business, and if MS can persuade XB owners that power is all you need then transitioning them over to PC becomes much easier. Thing like the controllers in the new XB1s having blu-tooth so they can be used easily with PC, Kinect being dropped and replaced with the PC centric Cortana, all XB1 games being made available to PCs, MS talking about the possibility of the XB OS being made available to other PC manufacturers and a Forza exclusive game for Windows 10, are all possible indications that MS are in fact slowly letting the console business fizzle out.

I have a feeling that when Scorpio releases, the media and forum users will be discussing whether it's a console or a PC.



 

The PS5 Exists. 


drkohler said:
Intrinsic said:

What is it with people these days? Now its power supply? smh

A discrete GPU recieving power is recieving power for eveerything in the GPU. Chip, memory and fan and any other electrical component in there. I mean memory alone can draw up to 20W!!!! And are you aware that even if the PS4 uses around 90-150W in total poeer right now its PSU is rated at 230-250W?

I don't think you really know what you are trying to say.

Let's take any RX480 5.5TF card. It draws over 160W to achieve this as per all the reviews we see. This wattage is drawn by the mosfets (7phases, apparently) that run the gpu and the 8G memory, and 1-2 fans.

Now move over to the Ps4 Neo. What do we have additionally here that needs power?

a) a motherboard with all interfaces (HDMI, SATA, USB2, IR, etc).

b) a cpu assembly (probably 6-8 cores Zen lite) needing its own mosfets (2-3 phases).

c) all the rest of the good stuff (something like a Soutthbridge/an arm processor with memory, a harddisk, a blu-ray drive, etc).

All this would bring you to way over 200W which is an absolute no-no for a console. You won't believe it but there actually are laws (at least in Europe) that regulate how much power a console is allowed to draw....

And if you are puzzled by the PS4's psu, a generic psu is best operated around 50-60% of its tpu rating, that is well known and you can see that in every data sheet of every generic psu. Unless it is an expensive psu tailor made for running at 90%+. You'll never find such a thing in a console.

PS3 fat from what I saw had draw of 209Watts for FF13 and because it's power supply was over 250W it need a 3 point plug. So yes, there are laws for consumption, but I don't think it would prohibit the specs you are putting. And the 160W from the review is for the PC version probably feeding things that the Console won't use so all this package you made will probably end up bellow 200W and even if it's a little over no problem.

GribbleGrunger said:
DonFerrari said:

I guess MS can launch a Scorpio or Xbox line of desktop/notebook or even their version of steambox, but I don't think they would go full PC on the Xbox line of gaming devices, but if they end up doing a desktop/notebook from MS ok.

We'll have to wait and see but I'm not the only person to suggest MS are moving away from their console business, and if MS can persuade XB owners that power is all you need then transitioning them over to PC becomes much easier. Thing like the controllers in the new XB1s having blu-tooth so they can be used easily with PC, Kinect being dropped and replaced with the PC centric Cortana, all XB1 games being made available to PCs, MS talking about the possibility of the XB OS being made available to other PC manufacturers and a Forza exclusive game for Windows 10, are all possible indications that MS are in fact slowly letting the console business fizzle out.

I have a feeling that when Scorpio releases, the media and forum users will be discussing whether it's a console or a PC.

So let's play the wait and see games... since I care for PS but not Xbox, if they decide to abandon console world and make their steambox version I couldn't care less.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

drkohler said:

I don't think you really know what you are trying to say.

Let's take any RX480 5.5TF card. It draws over 160W to achieve this as per all the reviews we see. This wattage is drawn by the mosfets (7phases, apparently) that run the gpu and the 8G memory, and 1-2 fans.

Now move over to the Ps4 Neo. What do we have additionally here that needs power?

a) a motherboard with all interfaces (HDMI, SATA, USB2, IR, etc).

b) a cpu assembly (probably 6-8 cores Zen lite) needing its own mosfets (2-3 phases).

c) all the rest of the good stuff (something like a Soutthbridge/an arm processor with memory, a harddisk, a blu-ray drive, etc).

All this would bring you to way over 200W which is an absolute no-no for a console. You won't believe it but there actually are laws (at least in Europe) that regulate how much power a console is allowed to draw....

And if you are puzzled by the PS4's psu, a generic psu is best operated around 50-60% of its tpu rating, that is well known and you can see that in every data sheet of every generic psu. Unless it is an expensive psu tailor made for running at 90%+. You'll never find such a thing in a console.

The fat PS3 had a power draw of around 200W+ in some games. And had a PSU of 320W. 

And before you go saying i don't know what i am trying to say, the whole poont of what I was saying was that nothing stops sony or MS from making a "premium" console that requires more then 250W to run. You are talking abiut watts like there is some sort of law they are all to abide by. 

And that stuff you said about laws in europe? Get your facts right. The laws don't prohibit anything, just puts the products in different tax brackets. A console like any other electronic is just that, an electronic device. So basically, sony pays more on tax in europe if they go as high as a certian wattage. 

If you look at just the GPU, it wouldnt require more than 100-110W to power. Now for somy, all other components on the board (including the low power arm processor) and the CPU can all fit in nicely with a 100W power draw bringing the total draw of the system to 200-230W. 

doesnt sound that impossible anymore does it? Mind you, i am not even saying this is the route they would take or that the console is this or that powerful. Just pointing out that what you are saying about power draw is misleading.