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Forums - General Discussion - Is free will a myth?

jason1637 said:
No. People can decide to do something or not. I decided to reply to this when i could have ignored it.

This is a really poor comment. That's the entire point of the OP's question. Everyone has this seeming choice, but whether or not there is an actual choice is what's up for the debate. 

But your response is contingent upon conscious decision-making, which we know is absolute nonsense. We know that the subconscious is what governs us, and it's something we neither control nor are aware of in any meaningful sense. At the risk of being reductionist, what *you* are is merely this conscious agent, making *you* subservient to this unconscious thing that decides everything while you're merely a passenger for its dictums. 

At a basic level, it's the same relationship that your monitor has with your CPU/GPU. It's merely displaying what the computer tells it to. In this same way, you are merely acting in accordance with the subconscious. 

All of this is mangled up in the concept of self as well, which is a pity, because the self is yet another illusion. 



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Teeqoz said:
Paperboy_J said:

But if he's not in control of them, then who, or what, is?  That's not a sarcastic question either.  I'd really like to know.

There's no person that's in control of them, his actions are just reactions to other actions happening in the world. But from each single person's point of view, it's indistinguishable from having free will, because you don't know that you've been affected by various things, and that those things have determined the outcome and the process and even what you are going to do next.

 

So nothing or noone is in control. It just follows the laws of physics. Even though you don't have free will, and don't have control over your own actions, that doesn't mean someone else have control over you. It's just that what goes on in your brain happens because stuff around you happens, not because you want it to.

But which chemicals the one I have today or the one from a year back? These chemicals keep changing and the universe itself is dynamic. You can't prove or disprove this because if you rewind time and the person does something else then the fact that you did it could have caused the change so you can't tell. The only way to find the truth would be to become an outsider to the universe. Otherwise how can you disprove consciousness is beyond me. Till someone does it, its your free will to believe what you want or causality is forcing you to believe. But this discussion harkens back to how did energy come about and then randomly turned to particles and randomly cause this synchronized opera of events that caused me to reply back to you or gave me the will to do so



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

OP is right in that there is no free will and Soleron is correct in his reasoning of it according to the laws of nature ...

It's the external and internal feedback to the physical constituents in our body that determines our decision ...

Our idea of "free will" is merely the possibilities in the future ...



Peh said:
Wright said:

 

What if you dream of doing so? What if you dream impossible figures or situations? Is dreaming an act of free will or also a result of physics?

Everything is a result of physics. Dreams are a result of your brain and thus physical. I don't believe in metaphyics. Everything what you experience on this world is phyiscal.

What you actually see in dreams is the power of imagination. I am a lucid dreamer. Therefor I am pretty aware of what my brain can do and sometimes it still surprises me. Therefor I can fly in my dream if I remember to do so or being remembered to do so. I also notice that certain dreams during one night repeat several times. Because I am consciousness about dreaming, I also remember what I did the last time and can chance the course of the dream for the second time. It's still difficult to do so.

But what a brain cannot do, is imagine something it doesn't know.

If you never saw what a tree looks like, you won't be able to imagine one. What a brain can do, depening on the intelligence level is combining certain knowledge and create something new out of it. But that something needs always a foundation. It cannot happen without one.  

But the entire point is you can believe it or not. It doesn't matter the same with religion because the physical can in no way prove or disprove the metaphysical in the same way you cannot prove or disprove God or a fourth dimension or extra dimensional beings or a fifth dimension or a tenth dimension. We are limited and will be limited and can only believe. If we had prove then the thing would be a fact and no believing would be required it would all be laid in front of us like an untangled ball of twine. So what I do is what I do and what am I is up for debate and whether this is my decision is up for debate and to how much extent chemicals and physics govern us is up for debate so it is a never ending conundrum about how everything works and what makes us tick and whether there is an us to begin with. For all we know we might be a complex simulation by beings far more intelligent then us and hence we become not even real in this sense



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

fatslob-:O said:
OP is right in that there is no free will and Soleron is correct in his reasoning of it according to the laws of nature ...

It's the external and internal feedback to the physical constituents in our body that determines our decision ...

Our idea of "free will" is merely the possibilities in the future ...

You can't just say that because you have no proof supporting or dissing that statement so try to use might be instead of is



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

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jason1637 said:

Well, i cant is sure of that but it's hard to comprehend an idea that free will doesn't exist because its like saying people are going to do this and that no matter what. 

It seems we're wired to be under the assumption of having free will. It certainly feels like you're in control of you own actions, but could it all be an illusion. What is the benefit of conciousness and belief in free will in evolution. Better focus and faster reaction time?

Sometimes you get these odd moments when it really seems we're only simply reacting to stimuli is a set way. For example, watching back home video of our own kids, it's creepy to realize we're making the exact same verbal reactions to what our kids do as is captured on the video, pretty much synchronized. But maybe that's just part of reliving a memory. Did I have a choice not to respond or respond differently. There was no concious choice. Most of our lives we're simply reacting to stimuli without being fully aware of it.

Conscious choice is usually weighing a set of alternatives and eventually the scale tips to one side. What makes that scale tip. Is it simply the result of a neural network tallying up pros and cons or do you have influence on it. Yet you are the neural network doing the tallying. A biological machine that became aware of itself. At least that's what I saw happening in my kids from birth until now. And similarly I have seen self awareness slowly disappear again by Alzheimer's disease. Is that the same though? Nobody can remember being concious at birth. Yet we can't ask late stage Alzheimer patients either whether they are concious locked up in an unresponsive brain. As long as memory and sense of time keep working we have a graps on the continuity of our existence in which we can think about free will. I have no idea where I'm going with this, except that I believe conciousness is very much tied to the biological brain and I have no clue how that could leave room for free will.



If you are a pure atheist or other materialist (that is someone who believes there's only the material world) then yes. That is the inevitable belief you must have to be consistent with your worldview.

However, ironically, the scientific crowd who champion this are kinda undermining themselves. Science, reason, understanding are all predicated on free choice. On the idea we can study two options and based on facts and observations and reason CHOSE the right one. If everything is predetermined by chemical reactions, we have no way of knowing that which we have arrived at is true. We will believe what we will believe, we will believe what we will believe is true, and it is no more significant than a series of domino's falling. Understanding, science, the search for truth, all nonsense. All illusions.



Eagle367 said:

You can't just say that because you have no proof supporting or dissing that statement so try to use might be instead of is

It's you that has no proof that there is hard evidence for free will ... 

Our identities are not seperate from the universe we live in ... 

You don't get to choose your own identity, it is simply assigned to you regardless of your so called "decisions" in accordance to the laws of nature ... 

You don't get to choose your heritage, where your born, your behaviour, or whatever you start with so why on earth would you or anyone else have "free will" seperate from the universe they live in ? 

The only thing that is uncertain is the future we can act on ... 



Eagle367 said:
Peh said:

Everything is a result of physics. Dreams are a result of your brain and thus physical. I don't believe in metaphyics. Everything what you experience on this world is phyiscal.

What you actually see in dreams is the power of imagination. I am a lucid dreamer. Therefor I am pretty aware of what my brain can do and sometimes it still surprises me. Therefor I can fly in my dream if I remember to do so or being remembered to do so. I also notice that certain dreams during one night repeat several times. Because I am consciousness about dreaming, I also remember what I did the last time and can chance the course of the dream for the second time. It's still difficult to do so.

But what a brain cannot do, is imagine something it doesn't know.

If you never saw what a tree looks like, you won't be able to imagine one. What a brain can do, depening on the intelligence level is combining certain knowledge and create something new out of it. But that something needs always a foundation. It cannot happen without one.  

But the entire point is you can believe it or not. It doesn't matter the same with religion because the physical can in no way prove or disprove the metaphysical in the same way you cannot prove or disprove God or a fourth dimension or extra dimensional beings or a fifth dimension or a tenth dimension. We are limited and will be limited and can only believe. If we had prove then the thing would be a fact and no believing would be required it would all be laid in front of us like an untangled ball of twine. So what I do is what I do and what am I is up for debate and whether this is my decision is up for debate and to how much extent chemicals and physics govern us is up for debate so it is a never ending conundrum about how everything works and what makes us tick and whether there is an us to begin with. For all we know we might be a complex simulation by beings far more intelligent then us and hence we become not even real in this sense

The thing is, we KNOW that our brains are controlled by chemicals and electrical impulses. And they follow the laws of physics. Those are facts. So unless you believe there is some metaphysical "magical" thing about our brains, then there is no room for "free will". It's controlled by physics, like everything else in our universe. It's harsh, but true.



SvennoJ said:
jason1637 said:

Well, i cant is sure of that but it's hard to comprehend an idea that free will doesn't exist because its like saying people are going to do this and that no matter what. 

It seems we're wired to be under the assumption of having free will. It certainly feels like you're in control of you own actions, but could it all be an illusion. What is the benefit of conciousness and belief in free will in evolution. Better focus and faster reaction time?

Sometimes you get these odd moments when it really seems we're only simply reacting to stimuli is a set way. For example, watching back home video of our own kids, it's creepy to realize we're making the exact same verbal reactions to what our kids do as is captured on the video, pretty much synchronized. But maybe that's just part of reliving a memory. Did I have a choice not to respond or respond differently. There was no concious choice. Most of our lives we're simply reacting to stimuli without being fully aware of it.

Conscious choice is usually weighing a set of alternatives and eventually the scale tips to one side. What makes that scale tip. Is it simply the result of a neural network tallying up pros and cons or do you have influence on it. Yet you are the neural network doing the tallying. A biological machine that became aware of itself. At least that's what I saw happening in my kids from birth until now. And similarly I have seen self awareness slowly disappear again by Alzheimer's disease. Is that the same though? Nobody can remember being concious at birth. Yet we can't ask late stage Alzheimer patients either whether they are concious locked up in an unresponsive brain. As long as memory and sense of time keep working we have a graps on the continuity of our existence in which we can think about free will. I have no idea where I'm going with this, except that I believe conciousness is very much tied to the biological brain and I have no clue how that could leave room for free will.

I see what you're getting at. We're wired to think hat we have free will but were just reacting to other things and taking command from our brain but we really aren't in control of out actions.