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Forums - General Discussion - Is free will a myth?

VXIII on 24 June 2016
Teeqoz said:
VXIII said:

Interesting read. Human self awareness and consciousness is still a big mystery so I don't think we are able to give a complete and comprehensive answer.

Personally, I do believe in free will. I have food in front of me. There are reasons why I should eat or not eat it. A conflict of two wills / needs. I'm hungry but I want to lose weight.

A simple situation, but it is enough for me get a sense of my ability to choose. I personally see no logical reason or superior power that could have prevented me from choosing either way. At times I ate. Other times I didn't. I prefer this kind of simplicity, but that is just me.

There being two options and you ending up on one of them doesn't mean you actually chose the one you ended up on.

 

You say there is a conflict between two wills/needs. You are hungry but you want to lose weight. Okay. But think about what those two needs/wills actually are; neurons and electrical signals and chemicals in two different systems. Whichever one wins is just the systems that is dominant there and then. Do you think you actually choose which system of neurons, chemicals and electrical signals ends up being dominant?

I think we need to agree that the human consciousness is more than chemicals and electrical signals. Edit: assuming that we can simulate thoso chemical and electrical pulses in a brain-like machine, I think it is logical to say that machine won't have a self awareness because of said pulses. 

To answer your question. Yes. Just like how emotions happen and being felt before the body start to produce all kinds of hormones which enhance the emotions further (fear first, the comes the Adrenaline) I believe the brain pulses which determine the "dominant system" happen due to our choice and will.  



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Teeqoz on 24 June 2016
RolStoppable said:
Teeqoz said:

Please explain how that fits with the laws of physics. Or is the human brain exempt from following those?

I don't get all that talk about physics. I think it's a much better idea to look at it in a manner of instinct vs. consciousness. Instinct isn't anything more than reacting to any given situation without thinking about it. Consciousness is an actual decision-making process and an awareness of possible consequences.

What differs humans from animals is said consciousness which is free will as it allows humans to choose their behavior. Animals act only on their instincts. By saying that free will is a myth, you are basically saying that humans and animals do not differ. That's why I have such a hard time buying into all the arguments that free will does not exist. Humans do have the choice to act against what their instinct tells them.

In VXIII's example, the instinct is to eat the food. An animal would do it. But a human has the choice. In his example, the decision to not eat the food is tied to the awareness that always giving in to your instincts will make or keep you fat and thus is detrimental to your long term health.

All this talk about physics is because our brain, like everything else in this universe, works through it. It's how the universe, and everything in it, works.

The thoughts in our brains are nothing more than electrical signals and chemicals reacting. The same goes for instincts, but the reactions are less complex but quicker.

Human's brains work in the same fundamental way as animals do. Telling ourselves anything else is just out of arrogance because we want to be special. Fact of the matter is, your brain is just a very complicated chemical reaction. Not some special supernatural thing that works differently than anything else in the universe. This isn't just an argument of instincts vs "decision making process". Yes, humans don't always act the way our instincts suggest we do. Sometimes, we have a longer thought process before we perform an action, and that longer thought process (read: complicated chemical reaction) sometimes gives us a different result than the quick instincts (fast chemical reaction). However that doesn't mean we decide the outcome of the longer thought process. It is still just a chemical reaction that we have no control over, and we don't decide the results conciously. It's just the result of the complicated chemical reaction, just like our instincts are the result of a quick chemical reaction.

Of course, there are those (quite a few of them actually) that believe in higher supernatural powers like a God or whatever. And that's the only way we could have free will: there being something supernatural that enables us to. I doubt it though.



Teeqoz on 24 June 2016
VXIII said:
Teeqoz said:

There being two options and you ending up on one of them doesn't mean you actually chose the one you ended up on.

 

You say there is a conflict between two wills/needs. You are hungry but you want to lose weight. Okay. But think about what those two needs/wills actually are; neurons and electrical signals and chemicals in two different systems. Whichever one wins is just the systems that is dominant there and then. Do you think you actually choose which system of neurons, chemicals and electrical signals ends up being dominant?

I think we need to agree that the human consciousness is more than chemicals and electrical signals. Edit: assuming that we can simulate thoso chemical and electrical pulses in a brain-like machine, I think it is logical to say that machine won't have a self awareness because of said pulses. 

To answer your question. Yes. Just like how emotions happen and being felt before the body start to produce all kinds of hormones which enhance the emotions further (fear first, the comes the Adrenaline) I believe the brain pulses which determine the "dominant system" happen due to our choice and will.  

Emotions do not happen before the brain starts them. You feel fear, which is just a certain part of your brain being active with electrical signals and chemical signals and receptors. That part of the brain then triggers a release of adrenaline, to increase physical and mental capabilities. So feeling fear first, before the adrenaline rush has nothing to do with it, because the feeling of fear itself is still nothing but chemicals and electrical signals in your neurons. I don't see why there should be anything else to the human conciousness than chemical reactions and electrical signals because there's nothing suggesting that there's anything more to it.



SkepticallyMinded on 24 June 2016
Nuvendil said:

If you are a pure atheist or other materialist (that is someone who believes there's only the material world) then yes. That is the inevitable belief you must have to be consistent with your worldview.

However, ironically, the scientific crowd who champion this are kinda undermining themselves. Science, reason, understanding are all predicated on free choice. On the idea we can study two options and based on facts and observations and reason CHOSE the right one. If everything is predetermined by chemical reactions, we have no way of knowing that which we have arrived at is true. We will believe what we will believe, we will believe what we will believe is true, and it is no more significant than a series of domino's falling. Understanding, science, the search for truth, all nonsense. All illusions.

You seem particularly confused about what a non-sequitur is. The entire second paragraph lumps together completely separate ideas by magic.

Hitchens had an amusing answer to this question - do you believe you have free will? "Of course I do, I have no choice."

VXIII said:

I think we need to agree that the human consciousness is more than chemicals and electrical signals. Edit: assuming that we can simulate thoso chemical and electrical pulses in a brain-like machine, I think it is logical to say that machine won't have a self awareness because of said pulses. 

Why would anyone in their right mind agree with this?



Teeqoz on 24 June 2016
RolStoppable said:
Teeqoz said:

All this talk about physics is because our brain, like everything else in this universe, works through it. It's how the universe, and everything in it, works.

The thoughts in our brains are nothing more than electrical signals and chemicals reacting. The same goes for instincts, but the reactions are less complex but quicker.

Human's brains work in the same fundamental way as animals do. Telling ourselves anything else is just out of arrogance because we want to be special. Fact of the matter is, your brain is just a very complicated chemical reaction. Not some special supernatural thing that works differently than anything else in the universe. This isn't just an argument of instincts vs "decision making process". Yes, humans don't always act the way our instincts suggest we do. Sometimes, we have a longer thought process before we perform an action, and that longer thought process (read: complicated chemical reaction) sometimes gives us a different result than the quick instincts (fast chemical reaction). However that doesn't mean we decide the outcome of the longer thought process. It is still just a chemical reaction that we have no control over, and we don't decide the results conciously. It's just the result of the complicated chemical reaction, just like our instincts are the result of a quick chemical reaction.

Of course, there are those (quite a few of them actually) that believe in higher supernatural powers like a God or whatever. And that's the only way we could have free will: there being something supernatural that enables us to. I doubt it though.

I don't think human brains are a supernatural thing. However, they are undeniably significantly more advanced than animal brains.

I am absolutely convinced that I consciously did not call you an idiot yet.

If you get asked how much is 2+2, do you feel that it needs supernatural powers to give a correct answer? Do you feel that you have no power or control when thinking about how much 2+2 is? Do you feel that you do not have the choice to deliberately give an incorrect answer?

All that talk about physics doesn't make much sense. You make it sound like humans have absolutely no control over what their brains do and the decisions they make. You make it sound like the brain works like the heart which is on autopilot. But when I ask you how much is 2+2, you can order your brain to provide an answer to the question and then you can control your body to give an answer to the question whether it's by saying it out loud or writing it down. Or you can choose to not give an answer. You can choose your behavior.

If I ask you what 2+2 is, I'm actually pretty confident your brain will think 4 automatically, without you conciously wanting it to (but I doubt you'd mind either. It just happens). And that talk about physics makes sense, because it's true. You just wave it off by saying it doesn't make much sense, but explain to me, why doesn't it make much sense? What is incorrect about it? Nothing. It's the way it works.

 

I make it sound like we don't have a say as to what our brains do, because we don't. Stimuli and external factors trigger chemical reactions in your brain, and you have no say as to what the result of that reaction is. It just follows the laws of physics. Unless you do believe there is something about your brain that doesn't follow the laws of physics, then you in reality agree with me. You just refuse to admit it, to both yourself and to me.



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Teeqoz on 24 June 2016
padib said:
Teeqoz said:

All this talk about physics is because our brain, like everything else in this universe, works through it. It's how the universe, and everything in it, works.

The thoughts in our brains are nothing more than electrical signals and chemicals reacting. The same goes for instincts, but the reactions are less complex but quicker.

Human's brains work in the same fundamental way as animals do. Telling ourselves anything else is just out of arrogance because we want to be special. Fact of the matter is, your brain is just a very complicated chemical reaction. Not some special supernatural thing that works differently than anything else in the universe. This isn't just an argument of instincts vs "decision making process". Yes, humans don't always act the way our instincts suggest we do. Sometimes, we have a longer thought process before we perform an action, and that longer thought process (read: complicated chemical reaction) sometimes gives us a different result than the quick instincts (fast chemical reaction). However that doesn't mean we decide the outcome of the longer thought process. It is still just a chemical reaction that we have no control over, and we don't decide the results conciously. It's just the result of the complicated chemical reaction, just like our instincts are the result of a quick chemical reaction.

Of course, there are those (quite a few of them actually) that believe in higher supernatural powers like a God or whatever. And that's the only way we could have free will: there being something supernatural that enables us to. I doubt it though.

It's not arrogance, because the other way to look at it is that we are pre-programmed to act the way we do and that is illogical. So it's not arrogant to aspire to logic.

If we are pre-programmed to do what we do, that makes our whole existence pointless. It makes all our emotions lies and illusions.

For instance, if I am honest towards someone and choose to do the right thing, it was all just my synapses doing the work. So it was not my work at all in the end. I didn't do anything, and I have no merit. Therefore I shouldn't be thanked.

So, if I shouldn't be thanked, why does the other person feel grateful?

It seems illogical to have such emotions when all this is robotic.

Why laugh that something is funny, if it was all just some synaptic trickery. The other person had it in their synapses all along, so why laugh?

Everything becomes predictable when we rule out any possibility of personality and freedom. And thus there should be no excitement, no surprise. Then why laugh? Why love?

See, this is exactly the point. It's a lot more romaticized and comforting to live with the illusion of free will than to accept that there is no such thing. But the cold hard truth is that there is no "meaning" to life. Life is just a bunch of boring "predictable" (if we knew every involved factor) chemical reactions happening on a very complex scale.

When someone says something funny, the reason you laugh is because just like it was in their synapses to say something funny, it's in your synapses to laugh at things that triggers an emotional (read: chemical) reaction in your brain.

Life isn't rosy and meaningful. There is no point to our existence. And we certainly don't have any say as to what happens to us. All the chemical reactions in our brains are reactions to other stimuli (and there is a whole shittonne of stimuli that impact the reactions in your brain!), and you don't control their outcome. But that doesn't really bother me. I just find it sort of peculiar.

 

But your post made me realize we evolutionarily it makes sense that we are under the illusion that we have free will.



Teeqoz on 24 June 2016
RolStoppable said:
Teeqoz said:

If I ask you what 2+2 is, I'm actually pretty confident your brain will think 4 automatically, without you conciously wanting it to (but I doubt you'd mind either. It just happens). And that talk about physics makes sense, because it's true. You just wave it off by saying it doesn't make much sense, but explain to me, why doesn't it make much sense? What is incorrect about it? Nothing. It's the way it works.

 

I make it sound like we don't have a say as to what our brains do, because we don't. Stimuli and external factors trigger chemical reactions in your brain, and you have no say as to what the result of that reaction is. It just follows the laws of physics. Unless you do believe there is something about your brain that doesn't follow the laws of physics, then you in reality agree with me. You just refuse to admit it, to both yourself and to me.

You are right, it just happens and I don't mind. My heart beats automatically too and I don't mind that either. What you didn't address is the choice of behavior which is the definition you have provided for free will. The more this discussion is going on, the more it looks like you didn't provide the correct definition for what you are talking about. You are right that brain activity is triggered and that there's no control over the chemical reactions, but where does that leave the ability to choose your behavior? It has yet to be addressed.

Let's try this: If women knew what men think, we all would be dead already. But we aren't, because we choose a behavior that masks what's going on in our brains. While we do not have control over what's going on in our brains (other than feeding it with chosen stimuli), we do have control over the output (language). We act in a way that saves our lives. Since women essentially force us to behave like this, we actually do not have a choice. So... there is no such thing as free will... for men.

Okay, hold on a second. Forget the previous paragraph.

You have to address why the output after the brain activity happened apparently does not matter when it comes to the choice of behavior, even though the output (what a person does or says) is the behavior.

Let me ask you one simple question: Do you believe that you can decide the outcome of the chemical reactions in your brain?

 

If your answer to the above is no, then you don't believe in free will. If your anwser to the above is yes, then you do believe in free will, and you also believe that our mind breaks the laws of physics.

The output after the activity has happened is a result of the activity. They aren't two separate things. The output is controlled through chemical reactions that are triggered by the result if the initial chemical reaction (brain activity), which in turn was triggered by a load of various stimuli. After the brain activity has happened, you don't then choose to perform it. The brain activity is the (illusion of) choice, and the output is a direct result of that "choice".

 

But really, I just want to see your answer to the question.

 

(I mean, how can you first say we don't have control of what's going on in our brains, but the say we have a choice about the output? The process of "creating" the output goes on IN our brains haha. The process of formulating words is also just a bunch of chemical reactions in your brain, with which you have no say in what the result is).



Teeqoz on 24 June 2016
RolStoppable said:
Teeqoz said:

Let me ask you one simple question: Do you believe that you can decide the outcome of the chemical reactions in your brain?

 

If your answer to the above is no, then you don't believe in free will. If your anwser to the above is yes, then you do believe in free will, and you also believe that our mind breaks the laws of physics.

The output after the activity has happened is a result of the activity. They aren't two separate things. The output is controlled through chemical reactions that are triggered by the result if the initial chemical reaction (brain activity), which in turn was triggered by a load of various stimuli. After the brain activity has happened, you don't then choose to perform it. The brain activity is the (illusion of) choice, and the output is a direct result of that "choice".

 

But really, I just want to see your answer to the question.

I do not follow your train of logic.

I could call you an idiot because you are posting so much rubbish.
Or I could ask you for more clarification.

But, and this is the question I have, you say that I do not have the choice between the above two things, let alone a third or fourth option not listed here?

You answer my question first, and I'll answer yours. You have this odd habit of ignoring every tricky thing I throw at you. I ask you "Why doesn't this talk about physics make much sense?" and you just wave it off, and create another argument that doesn't hold water when you give it a little scrutiny. And now I asked you this one, very simple question which would reveal what you actually think, but you avoid giving ke the answer. I think you don't want to answer, because like I've stated earlier, you don't want to admit to yourself that free will is an illusion. But I don't blame you, it's not like you have a choice

 

Everything that goes on in your mind is chemical reactions and electrical signals. They are triggered by things you can't control (external stimuli), and you can't control the outcome of those chemical reactions. Given that there are zero things about what's going on in your mind that you can control, (neither when chemical reactions are triggered, what chemical reactions are triggered, how they are triggered, and what the result of those chemical reactions will be), there is nothing about your mind that you control, and you don't have free will. The chemical reactions control your behaviour, and you don't control the chemical reactions, thus you don't control your behaviour.

EDIT: @your edit, the stimuli we "choose" to expose ourselves to are decided by those same chemical reactions that you don't control to begin with. What this means is that when you're gonna watch porn, the chemical reactions in your brain has resulted in that and you in reality never had a choice. You were gonna watch porn all along. You didn't choose it.

 

And my question isn't formulated poorly. I've just skipped all the fluff. The chemical reactions control your behaviour, so if you don't control the chemical reactions, you don't control your behaviour. And if you DO control the chemical reactions, then it has to be through some mechanism that breaks the laws of physics, and as such is supernatural.



Teeqoz on 25 June 2016
RolStoppable said:
Teeqoz said:

You answer my question first, and I'll answer yours. You have this odd habit of ignoring every tricky thing I throw at you. I ask you "Why doesn't this talk about physics make much sense?" and you just wave it off, and create another argument that doesn't hold water when you give it a little scrutiny. And now I asked you this one, very simple question which would reveal what you actually think, but you avoid giving ke the answer. I think you don't want to answer, because like I've stated earlier, you don't want to admit to yourself that free will is an illusion. But I don't blame you, it's not like you have a choice

 

Everything that goes on in your mind is chemical reactions and electrical signals. They are triggered by things you can't control (external stimuli), and you can't control the outcome of those chemical reactions. Given that there are zero things about what's going on in your mind that you can control, (neither when chemical reactions are triggered, what chemical reactions are triggered, how they are triggered, and what the result of those chemical reactions will be), there is nothing about your mind that you control, and you don't have free will. The chemical reactions control your behaviour, and you don't control the chemical reactions, thus you don't control your behaviour.

I edited my previous post.

If you want an answer regardless, it is yes, because I can choose to not call you an idiot. This doesn't break the laws of physics.

As did I. But if you do think you can control the chemical reactions in your brain, then there must be something metaphysical (maybe a ghost!) to it. There's no getting around that.



Teeqoz on 25 June 2016
RolStoppable said:
Teeqoz said:

EDIT: @your edit, the stimuli we "choose" to expose ourselves to are decided by those same chemical reactions that you don't control to begin with. What this means is that when you're gonna watch porn, the chemical reactions in your brain has resulted in that and you in reality never had a choice. You were gonna watch porn all along. You didn't choose it.

 

And my question isn't formulated poorly. I've just skipped all the fluff. The chemical reactions control your behaviour, so if you don't control the chemical reactions, you don't control your behaviour. And if you DO control the chemical reactions, then it has to be through some mechanism that breaks the laws of physics, and as such is supernatural.

What is when I want to watch porn, but don't do it? What does that mean?

It means there are two different chemical reactions (well, probably more like two billion, but two "main" reactions) going on in your brain, and one of them is stronger than the other, so it is the dominating force and will suppress the other reaction.

 

What a piece of iron is between a fridge magnet and an industrial magnet, it is attracted to the fridge magnet, yet it ends up going to the industrial magnet because it's stronger. Does the piece of iron have free will?